Wednesday, August 11, 2010

No one’s buying a house in and around Mumbai

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A staggering 96.3 million square feet of residential space — or about 80,000 homes — is lying unsold in the Mumbai Metropolitan Region (MMR), the highest-ever inventory pile-up for the area. Sales are down 38% over last year.

Data compiled by real estate research firm Liases Foras show that at the end of June 2010, the unsold residential space in Mumbai, Navi Mumbai, Mira-Bhayander and Thane was nearly twice the 58.9 million sq ft that was available in the MMR in June 2008. Liases Foras CEO Pankaj Kapoor said if flats that are currently lying with investors, which will eventually return to the market are taken into account, another 50 million sq ft will be added to the unsold space.

Analysts see in the glut a throwback to the circumstances that led to the realty slowdown of 2008-09. Builders are again looking to raise money through IPOs, and the pricing of flats is valuation- rather than sales-driven.

The average price of residential property in the MMR works out to Rs 7,747 per sq ft; in Mumbai itself it is an eye-popping Rs 13,798 per sq ft. A 1,000-sq ft carpet area flat in Kandivli, which cost Rs 70 lakh 15 months ago today costs Rs 1.6 crore, Kapoor said.

120 comments:

shailesh said...

Flip-flop keeps realtors on edge

With news that airport may come up in Ambernath, investors keep away from Navi Mumbai.

"News that the new airport may now come up in Ambernath instead of Navi Mumbai has made do a rethink," said Sharma. "Besides, the monsoon is not the right time to invest in realty. Also, let the economic slowdown wane entirely."

MiD DAY had first reported about the plan to build the second airport in Ambernath instead of Navi Mumbai.

Soon after, Union Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel refuted this. However, subsequent media reports said that Members of Parliament from Thane and Mumbai had met Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and during the meeting, the Ambernath plan had come up for discussion.

"The airport had given a boost to the city of Navi Mumbai. For the last 10 years, we had been selling projects keeping the airport on our brochures," admitted an officebearer of a consortium of real estate builders in Navi Mumbai. "Despite prices being hiked, sales had picked up in the last few years because of the airport. We hope the proposed airport does not move away from Navi Mumbai or else the real estate market might crash."

shailesh said...

Airport at Ambernath?

As Navi Mumbai airport plan runs into one trouble after another, Civil Aviation ministry is now considering building Mumbai's second airport at the flat lands of Ambernath instead.

Kalyan resident said...

The land around the navi mumbai proposed airport site has been encroachedoccupied legally and the people involved are mostly are those have political connections. These guys expect hefty compensations from government and huge profits by selling the land to hotels etc. The cost of building the airport in navi mumbai taking into account the amount of compensation, legal suits makes the project 5 times more expensive than building it at ambernath virgin land and plan the infrastructure/amenities, link to mainland mumbai etc

Now everything depends on govt as powerful people are involved and these guys will fight for their investments

Anonymous said...

Only dumb people will buy Real Estate now. Just see the newspapers for the amount of possession notices. People unable to pay the loans are leaving the Banks to repossess their property. The number of possesson notices and auction notices are increasing at an alarmng rate. If you dont beleive me, just look at the mainstream mewspapers. I read hindu and the possession rates are concernng me.Moreover I beleive banks are not letting out the real magnitude of the crisis of non-repayment of loan taken against property. Sometime within the next 18 months the real estate sand castle is going to get blown away. Only dumb people will be left holding their investments in Real Estate in the next two years. The smart ones would have booked their profit.

Anonymous said...

80,000 empty flats in Mumbai?

Difficult to swallow

Anonymous said...

80,000 empty flats in Mumbai?

Not true. Someone is floating false rumors. I work for land registration dept and for sure know the statistics. Investors may be holding 8000 flats, but this too is difficult to verify.
There is no penalty in our country for false rumor mongering. To make them sound authentic, names of large companies/Realtor are used.

If you want to verify any report, I suggest that you check with the land registration dept. Don't pin your hopes on false news

Desi Batman said...


The average price of residential property in the MMR works out to Rs 7,747 per sq ft; in Mumbai itself it is an eye-popping Rs 13,798 per sq ft. A 1,000-sq ft carpet area flat in Kandivli, which cost Rs 70 lakh 15 months ago today costs Rs 1.6 crore, Kapoor said.


That is 90 lacs in 15 months, i.e. appreciation of 100%+. So it is OK to assume atleast 100% appreciation in another 12 months the price will be 3.2 crores.

I cannot afford 70 lacs let alone 1.6 crores or more.

So at this rate, I see myself below poverty line soon in few years.

Anonymous said...

In the early 90's, a similar boom had taken place and lasted 2-3 years. Then the prices went back to normal. Looks like the history is repeating itself.

Desi Batman said...

Ambiguity is number one powerful tools for investors. They never want world to know facts because then they can ask and spread rumor they want.

Airport in Navi Mumbai, well hearing this for past 15 years.. YES fifteen f**king years. May be plans or talks got steam in past 7 to 8 years.

Good now lets start with Ambernath or whatever.... will hear it for another 15 years.

Sellers keep asking for RE absurd prices, but in reality how many can afford anything above 50 lacs.

People forget with mortgages that that is contract for loan period. Does really anyone think that India will have ALWAYS foreign investment inflow (based on which India is shining) for next 20 years? REALLY?

I am waiting for inflation to increase and also RBI to increase rates to control inflation. Will this not happen? REALLY?

shailesh said...

Anonymous at 7:40

Can you confirm if folks are paying also the same amount claimed by news papers? For e.g. one recent article mentioned Rs 14K price for Kandivali.

According to your argument, if news paper reports of 80,000 vacant flats are wrong, then even the price of Rs 14K is also probably wrong. For that matter, I think the whole RE boom story portrayed by builders may not be true as well.

Desi Batman said...

Prices in Ghatkopar - Be ready to shell out minimum 1 crore for 2BHK.

Many are still buying. Basically they are selling already owned 1 BHK for 80 lacs and upgrading to 2 BHK. Story continues for people upgrading from 2 BHK to 3 BHK.

At the end the person at the bottom layer buying 1 BHK has to shell out the large chunk.

This will continue until the bottom layer is out of buying power.

shailesh said...

It's called,

Plankton Theory

Bindas Bhai said...

Shailesh, nice one

Thanks,

Bindas Bhai

samix said...

@anon at 7:41 working for the land registration department.

If only it was so easy to obtain any information and that too authentic information from Government department, then India would be a different place to live all together

Anonymous said...

@samix,
I guess you are right. All these govt departments are in collusion with the businesses that they are supposed to monitor,probably share the profits and provide false statistics to the media and common man.

Unless the govt has colluded with the real estate barons, there is no way for the price to rise astronomically. In the end, when the whole thing crashes public sector banks will take the responsibility and the pass the buck to you and me who pay taxes. In other words, whichever direction you look, we will be the ultimate losers

samix said...

The government is not just allowing the RE boom to continue unabated for non official reasons but this is a standard policy that all countries put to practice.

The logic is pretty simple, You allow a RE boom, the average man on the block feels wealthy , there is a general sense of well being among the guys who own any scrap of land.

The government can then boast about bloated GDP and other useless economic figures that really don't matter to people you and me.

By the way know that we are living in a regime of irredeemable people currency that is backed by nothing more than hollow promises of the Central Bank, and know that all the paper money is inherently credit, someone else's liability, thus a bust has to come , the only option is how far can we postpone it ?

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final total catastrophe of the currency involved."
- Ludwig von mises

Thambi said...

samix anne,

you said "The government can then boast about bloated GDP and other useless economic figures that really don't matter to people you and me."

I dont understand why would govt boast about GDP. Irrespective of what govt says, there are other agencies both national and international, publish their own statistics pertaining to GDP. On the other hand, the govt has no control over corp world that is the de facto ruler and the elected body is merely taking orders from them. Both benefit at the expense of masses who starve to death.
How can one explain the poverty level of India is below that of sub Saharan countries of Africa. The govt can boast that indians own more Mercedes than the west, but they can't hide the fact that half of India is starving.

The bottom line is the depraved indifference towards the less fortunate. In a nutshell you call call it as jungle law

samix said...

@Thambi,

Real estate price are taken into consideration when calculating GDP and Nominal GDP.

Five per cent of the country’s GDP is contributed by the housing sector. In the next three or four or five years this contribution to the GDP is expected to rise to 6%.

Full link is here http://www.sethassociates.com/Real_estate_sector_in_india.php

If only the independent national and international bodies were truthful and not cook figures, America woudnt be the mess that it is today.

Remember all the rating agencies in America that gave AAA ratings to toxic cds's ? when they deserved to get a rating of Junk ?

Bindas Bhai said...

Chembur from 13k will reach 30k or Parel from 30k will reach 13k? Or will it be stable?

http://www.livemint.com/2010/08/12205440/Signs-of-a-glut-as-developers.html?atype=tp

shailesh said...

An unreal market

Indians will be familiar with runaway housing prices, a constant worry for the middle class. By some indications, excess housing capacity should start being a cause for worry too.

Data from research firm Liases Foras, reported by The Indian Express on Wednesday, shows a market in Greater Mumbai where 96.3 million sq. ft of residential area is unsold as of June, nearly twice what it was two years ago. Anecdotal evidence suggests a similar glut in Pune, and perhaps also around Delhi.

More profoundly, the problem here is that India’s demand for real estate—as an investment or otherwise—is such that higher prices don’t appear to be deterring those who can afford it.

And therein lies the challenge for regulators. As much as they should inject transparency and regularity in real estate and stay vigilant over wanton borrowings in this sector, they should also enable supply to meet unmet demand in the longer term. That means, instead of an oligarch-infested market, India needs one with more builders competing to build more homes.

shailesh said...

Swimming pools are passed off as lily ponds

MUMBAI: Construction industry sources have alleged that some BMC officers in the building proposals department, and those higher up in the hierarchy at civic headquarters, have made crores by allowing builders to carry out gross violations in their projects—parking space allotted on every floor and later converted into ‘saleable’ apartment area is one glaring example.

Sources said the first such building came up in Powai near Chandivali about three years ago. “The carpet area of the flat is less than 2,000 sq ft, but the builder sold it by showing a built-up area of 5,000 sq ft by getting the huge parking space enclosed,’’ they said.

A prominent architect said there is no provision in development control regulations for car decks or for private swimming pool with each apartment. “Developers have found a way for its approval by calling the swimming pool a lily pond. Why does the lily pond have dimensions and depth needed for swimming pools? Moreover, why should a lily pond meant for beautification and aesthetic purposes be situated behind the toilet ducts and not seen from any part of the house?’’ he wondered.

shailesh said...

The ’60s show revived for housing

vinay said...

great blog designed for housing knowledge

Parminder said...

This website contains a lot of information about homes.it really helped us a lot in selecting our dream home.everyone who reads this article gets benefits from it.

BUY OMAHA HOMES

Anonymous said...

oye parminder praji,

why spam here ?

Anonymous said...

okay day dreamers, but my question is in MUMBAI why then the prices are not going down , if no one is buying ..

Anonymous said...

"why then the prices are not going down , if no one is buying .."

Good and rational question.

If one does the market survey, he realizes that there aren't many unoccupied flats in Mumbai. In other words, the supply is very limited but the demand is growing day by day. So, it is natural for the prices are increasing. Do not believe for a moment that 8o,ooo flats are there for sale in the market but no buyers. 80,000 flats are equivalent to nearly 8000 towers. This way some people think that they can keep the anger of house hunters down giving the illusion of a imminent crash

DhImAn said...

I don't for a moment disbelieve that 80,000 (or even more) flats are unsold in Mumbai.

Why? The name of the game is artificial scarcity. You think real estate agents are honest about getting you that dream home?

You think an agent won't tell you that nothing is available but because he's your friend he'll do "something" for you, but sadly it will cost "more"?

This tactic is bound to fail longer term; what you see is an early part of the failure mechanism - buyers stop buying, regardless of price.

Shailesh is spot on with the Plankton theory post. Eventually everything is done on the back of the common man. When the common man is pushed to the limit, the whole edifice comes crashing down.

Here's a nice quote:

"When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at a rock, perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two. And I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before." … Jacob Riis

This is the same as the parable of the "last straw that broke the camel's back".

If you study the dynamics of failure in any system, you'll realize that there is usually a threshold for failure, below which you can get away with anything. However, above the threshold, things get interesting. You may continue increasing the load, and you may even see no apparent ill effect, sometimes for years. Then one day, snap - the system breaks.

We may think "All Is Well", like an idiot; but nature isn't playing by those rules. In nature, entropy always increases.

samix said...

@DhImAn, my gold bull friend, long time no say ?

samix said...

If anyone can't believe the fact that there are empty flats in Mumbai then I invite you all to do a recce of Raheja Complex that is near Adarsh Nagar, Andheri west, next to fame adlabs.

Many flats have remained vacant there for a long long time, its an open secret.

DhImAn said...

Hey Samix, was on vacation, had been to India for a couple weeks. Back now, though!

Desi Batman said...


Anonymous @10:42 AM

If one does the market survey, he realizes that there aren't many unoccupied flats in Mumbai. In other words, the supply is very limited but the demand is growing day by day. So, it is natural for the prices are increasing. Do not believe for a moment that 8o,ooo flats are there for sale in the market but no buyers. 80,000 flats are equivalent to nearly 8000 towers.


How do you define 'unoccupied flats' - vacant flats for sale or flats that have been bought by investors and are hoarding it for an ransom?

What do you mean by supply is limited and demand is growing? What is changing so fast that demand is growing? population? HUGE money earnings by MANY people at same time?

care to complete loose ends in your comments?

samix said...

Demand supply is the weakest argument that I always keep getting from RE bulls.

RE demand can wither out in a trifle... Picture this..

As RE price keeps going through the roof we will most likely see consolidation of families, where kids after their marriage rather than moving out to different flats will choose to live with their parents.

So you see how demand gets skewed in this market ?

Secondly as explained before , we all want to buy Lamborghini's right ? but how many of us really constitute the demand for that beauty ? Now anyone who claims that the price of a Lamborghini is high due to demand and supply is naive in the least...

Anonymous said...

DONT GET CONNED:

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/aug/11/slide-show-1-all-about-saharas-delayed-housing-projects.htm#contentTop

SS is one of the promoters of sahara group

Israel's Financial Expert said...

Good site!
It nice to find some good info India, I was doing my research for my own article, and it's not easy to find good sources on India.(Check: India- An Examination of another Emerging “Miracle”

Israel's Financial Expert said...

Good site!
It nice to find some good info India, I was doing my research for my own article, and it's not easy to find good sources on India.(Check: India- An Examination of another Emerging “Miracle”

Desi Batman said...

RBI likely to hike key rates by 0.5-0.75 per cent going forward

I guess, we need to be more patient. RBI trying to tame inflation by increasing rates in tiny proportion. Like feeding a hungry Lion with peanuts.

All is Well !!

Anonymous said...

It has begun!

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/sbi-icici-bank-hike-lending-rates-by-0-50-loan-emis-to-rise-89638

Desi Batman said...


@ Anonymous 9:01 PM

It has begun!

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/sbi-icici-bank-hike-lending-rates-by-0-50-loan-emis-to-rise-89638


As long as people have ability to pay EMI nothing changes. Infact this will shoot up RE resale prices and also rents in short term. Now that is good news, why? because this causes cascading effect of keeping buyers off the market.

Currently only SBI and ICICI have hiked the rates. These rates are impacted for reprice and new loans. Therefore not everybody will be impacted, wait for 3 more years and fun starts.

As I said earlier, patience is key. Yes, this is just the beginning.

Rahul Bajaj said...

This rate hike is not going to make a difference to the real estate market in Mumbai as the mortgaged homes in mumbai constitute only 7% of the homes sold in 2009. I am sure that the figure is same this year. This is all a game played with black money.

Unless the govt cracks down on black. there is not going to be a respite. Criticize or curse me all you can, but the fact remains the same. I have been watching the market since 2007, and have arrived at this conclusion

Desi Batman said...


@ Rahul Bajaj @6:21 AM

This rate hike is not going to make a difference to the real estate market in Mumbai as the mortgaged homes in mumbai constitute only 7% of the homes sold in 2009. I am sure that the figure is same this year. This is all a game played with black money.


I guess what you mean is that only 7% of purchase price is taken in mortgage rest 93% is either paid in black or white are down payment?

Therefore for every 1 crore RE there is mortgage of only 7 lacs. in other words, everyone buying RE have 93 lacs as down payment (black or white) for every 1 crore !!

Now do you expect us to believe this?

Anonymous said...

I guess what Rahul means is 83% buyers paid outright cash and the rest financed their purchase through banks etc.
I dont know where he got these figurs, as banks/builders dont publish any of their transactions. As for builders, their balance sheets are manipulated by accountants
and only the insiders in the bank know the transaction. I believe that the banking system is also corrupt and hoodwink the public.

Whatever the situation may be, this astronomical prices will be short lived and logic says that one day it will bite dust. When this is going to be, is anybodys guess.

Patience is the key. Let us hope that such day will come sooner

Desi Batman said...

That still doesn't change anything if you average it per transaction.

let's 3 people bought RE 1 crore each, total is 3 crores. Still it is 7 lacs mortgage each transaction i.e. 21 lacs total mortgage. 93 lacs downpayment each transaction, i.e. total 2.79 crores in down payment.

Therefore 100 cr total transactions: only 7 crores in mortgages and whopping 93 crores in cash/down payment.

Lately Indiabull got RE deal for 1500 crores, add to that additional cost to building and huge profit, they will sell end product for atleast 3000 crores. So in this case they will have 210 crores in mortgages and 2790 crores in down payment. i.e. USD 620 million for JUST ONE DEVELOPER and ONE LOCATION.

Whom are you kidding !!

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

HI desiBatman,

I think , you r lost in your own numbers.

What rahul bajaj says has point (if his numbers r true).

Desi Batman said...

Laloo,

I like the 'if' in your statement: 'What rahul bajaj says has point (if his numbers r true)'

I would like to know what made you to write 'if'? any logical reasoning?

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

Hi Desi Batman,
life has thought me kind of “ disbelief” in everything i see around. My current state of mind is such, it opposes to believe anything on its face value. After lot of probing and critical evaluation, it tends to accept partially.
What to do..

DhImAn said...

I love it that Batman picked out the "if". Dude Laloo, don't you get it?

OK. Let me illustrate: "Everything is fine if nothing is wrong?"

How about "If the numbers are right, then Rahul Bajaj is right."

Get it, O Master of the Obvious?

Man, everybody agrees with such statements, but the real question is "Are the numbers right?"

Rahul Bajaj and others says yes, Batman and others says no. I happen to agree with Batman.

You seem to agree with yourself. That's great and all, but not quite the answer everyone was hoping for.

Anonymous said...

i just came today and checked one small bhk flat costing USD 120,000, means 60 lakhs in malad west, wonder who will buy not even 500 sqft

Desi Batman said...

Hum to chaley pardesh. Hope to find little sanity in that world.

Comparision of same size flats based on my India and abroad Salary:
Mumbai rent vs salary ratio: 45%
Abroad rent vs salary ratio: 22%

And if I perform which I am confident, chances are that my salary abroad going up by 40% by next year. That will bring down ratio to 16%!

Chances in India: Nil - only exploitation.

I have to return to India one day. Hope that day either India will have sane RE prices or I will have enough money to be part of insane world.

samix said...

congrats desi_batman, even I am trying for the past 2 years.

I lost a chance to go abroad last year because Mumbai university gives it's candidates their degree's 6 to 8 months after they have completed graduation.

what a fuckall system

Anonymous said...

Samix,
6-8 months is good. My wife graduated in 1996 from Univ. of Rajasthan. They haven't given the degree yet. They said they are still processing year 1993. I hope to get the degree on our deathbed.

Desi Batman said...

@ Samix 7:34 AM and Anon 8:17 AM

Thanks Samix.

Looks like you are forgetting basic rules in India. Did you try any of these proven working mechanisms?

Rule #1: Bribe.
Rule #2: Use your connections.
Rule #3: Use force.
Rule #4: Make a fake.

Did you note I didn't even mention a straight forward way, because there is NONE in India, atleast in my experiences with various situations.

I learnt these rules by getting humiliating many times. Nowadays these tactics has be learnt from Kindergarten (KG).

samix said...

@DhImAn have you ever read http://fofoa.blogspot.com ?

Very interesting and intriguing stuff there.

Desi batman if you are a Gold bull, even you may enjoy that site

samix said...

Desi batman, I was willing to pay as much as they wanted, but because this was the same academic year that I passed out there was no way a True Degree could be out before the convocation!

DhImAn said...

Samix,

Yes, I read FOFOA; actually I enjoyed Another the most. Sometimes, I get tired with all the verbosity of FOFOA. I am more the mathematical type of guy - like "if f(x) != g(y) then we are screwed" kind thing - and every so often I get irritated at lack of brevity. But don't get me wrong, FOFOA is really brilliant, but just not concise.

This is why, much as I appreciate and understand Ayn Rand's message, I loathe Atlas Shrugged. Woman, if you can't say what needs to be said in 50 pages or less, then I don't got the time to read your diatribe.

As a good example of brevity, consider reading Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse.

Or try Antal E. Fekete. He is quite concise.

In my mind (not that I follow what I preach) the two qualities that a good written piece must have are that it must be precise and concise.

DhImAn said...

Batman: "Hum to chaley pardesh. Hope to find little sanity in that world."

No you won't.

The West invented corruption. Corruption starts off as intellectual corruption; where you twist facts to suit beliefs. We know who the masters of that art were - remember those who persecuted Galileo?

Yes, indeed. Ever since we have had organized religion, we have had someone trying to suppress truth in the name of beliefs.

If you think that this is a thing of the past, I urge you to look at Muslim nations - for instance those who maim women for some alleged transgression of their faith.

Perhaps you think that such isn't the case in more 'advanced' nations like the US. Wrong. In the US, there is a strong movement of Christians who claim that evolution is just a theory, and the truth is that their God created earth and everything five thousand years ago. Heck, they go to any length to brainwash kids in school about "creationism". Look it up.

Or look at people like Michael Savage or Bill O'Reilly. They epitomize corrupted intellectuality.

OK, so maybe you think that this is all philosophical, and won't really affect you. Well, how about the fact that the West invented corrupted money?

Like when the money isn't worth jack - and can be printed into existence by a privileged class of people, while the rest of humanity lives in the dregs?

Or when property ownership is so corrupted that if you don't pay property taxes, your property gets taken back (confiscated) by the state? How do you own something if you have to pay a fee in perpetuity to use it? Ever heard of fee-simple vs allodial titles?

How about when your young teenage daughter winds up pregnant or your teenage boy on drugs? The west has a permissive society that even encourages such things; look at all the movies that glorify losing your virginity in school?

The world has become a rotten place, and like the old saying goes; a fish rots from the head. Today, every single government is rotten, be it that of India or that of the US or that of any in Europe.

So if you are going with the hope that you'll find something less rotten, then you are wrong. In India, the rot is visible, but in the west, the rot has a coat of paint applied over it. But it is also rotten, and in many cases, worse.

I've lived in the US for nearly fifteen years and seen a lot of the rot first hand.

Of course, this is a huge topic but if you want more of my opinions, let me know. But please have a thick skin, since this topic is quite sensitive.

Anonymous said...

Corruption is as old as mankind, as Chanakya once said you can only manage it and not abolish it all together.

Anonymous said...

DhlmAn:

When you are many problems, big problems seem small and trivial. When you have hardly any problems, small problems seem big and important.

Anonymous said...

DHLMAN @4:16

I couldn't agree less. Here are some of the examples of Indirect Corruption:

1. While I was in North Carolina, the City Office had planned and Budgeted for a Public Transport System. Ultimately it was declared as unfeasible and Funds were channeled into building more roads and flyovers instead - Car Mfrs. Lobby
2. Why isn't there an Uniform for Students in Public Schools all over America - Retailers Lobby
3. Exorbitant Healthcare Costs - Health Insurance, Medical Providers and Pharma Lobby
4. Too Big to Fail Organizations have a non exhaustive supply of Money, courtesy Federal Reserve and US Govt Mints

These are just a few and probably DHLMAN might print thousand others if one asks him.

NT

DhImAn said...

To Anon @9:58 PM:

Your point being? The problems with the west are trivial?

Desi Batman said...

There is no such place as "Happy Place" except for Heaven. And I am sure even in Heaven one can find flaws and in Hell peace. It is we who decides with what we can live with.

I can list several more issues in Western world, but real question "Yeah problems are there, but how much of that impacts me or my lifestyle? can I live with that?"

India was called sone ki chidiya by whole world, it had rich and spritual culture. Friends were to die for, personally I have risked my career several times. Parents are/were treated same level of God. Materialistic issues didn't matter, but relations do. But I have seen India going to dogs or worse. Corruption here is from ground level to the top. Can one buy milk with being sure that is not adulterated, Can you be sure what your doctors says and medicine he prescribes without knowing your medical history. Schools are to literate but not educate. Looks around, today friends are more of your peers, attitude of 'chalta hai' is deep inside our bloods, might is right in India.

West has several issues, atleast people there don't have to deal with basic ground level issues. Buy milk from any shop including petrol pump/gas stations you are confident you won't be sick. Police, fire brigade, ambulance services are equal to everyone rich, poor or ultra rich. One doesn't have to bribe to get drivers license, passport, ration cards. Most of the workers are promoted or given raise on the quality of services. Money is earned and spent for one's wellness. Do you know how much charity westerners do? check out: List of most charitable countries

For getting my true copies notorized in India, believe had to run around. To get just passing certificate from university I had to use influence. To resolve the case where traffic hawaldar caught me where I was not at fault I had to fight/argue. Now to get decent flat to stay, I can't afford except that I stay in slums. Everyday every moment is a struggle!

Property taxes are high where there are great public schools, one doesn't have to pay for schools. Same goes for the services you pay for fire, medical, police emergencies. There is no free lunch sir.
Do you know the highest number of abortions (teens) in India are after Navratri festival? USA is number in developed world, but overall India beats USA. Teenage pregnancy
Recently on my friend family in India adopted baby, why? because that just born child was on road side garbage bin being eaten alive with ants and roaches.
In India if you have money, there is different queue for you altogether for everything- access to God in temple to voilation of every possible law.
People are hypocrates in India, real agenda and issues are hidden. Look at politicians to the people you meet on day to day life. Take time, sit on railway station and look at the faces - more than 80% people are stressed and in that pressure to survive they will do anything.

Enough of India and western bashing. Currently, I am better off now living in western world than living in slums in Mumbai. Will return when I feel I can live with issues in India.

Anonymous said...

Desi Batman, well said
The following quotes are observation by a lady and were published in Indian Express on the eve of our independence day

There are thousands of reasons why all the patriotic bullshit about 'Our India' leaves her stone cold.

And why, despite independence, she admires, well, the West:

1) If you misuse public money, you can’t get away scot free, regardless of who you are or who you are related to or who you know in the echelons of power.

2) If you have a grudge against a public servant, you know how to seek redress. And you know you will get it, regardless of who she is or who she is related to.

3) You are held accountable for what you do irrespective of who you are or what strings you pull or what ever you can do to hush it all up.

4) The CEO’s kid and the cleaning lady’s children go to the same school, learn the same lessons and have an equal opportunity when they step out in the real world.

5) There is no caste column in the school application forms or in the company service records. And it is not the yardstick with which someone gauges you and treats you.

6) No one looks down upon you if you don’t speak their language. Or no one looks up at you if you speak a language “superior” than theirs.

7) Religion is a personal question like one’s age and salary. It is certainly not the USP of political parties to ride to power or pull someone down.

8) You don’t have to answer ‘where is your native?’ from even a bank clerk just because you look different. And get treated differently as a result.

9) Your single status does not worry your colleagues, neighbours or their visiting relatives. And your sexual prowess is not a mater of public debate.

10) You will not die from the bite of a street dog. Or from a passing mosquito. Or from a little insect in your vegetable.

63 years of independence and yet the city of mumbai hasn't built anything worthwhile to its credit expect naming of streets after local goons.

Desi Batman said...

Interesting comments/points on below blog:
10 reasons why Mera Bharat is not quite Mahaan

Jai Bharat? Sure.

Desi Batman said...

@Samix and @DhImAn

Thanks for FOFOA and suggestion for reading articles on Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse and Antal E. Fekete.

For anyone else interested, here are the links I found on web for the same and I will surely keep educating myself.

Antal E. Fekete
Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse

Thanks Shailesh and Vik for keeping blog active. Sorry I didn't mean to deviate from main subject Indian RE. Will be back to main theme.

Anonymous said...

hi,

I suggest also read this website. This website helps me in connecting many dots of various world events.

http://www.analysis-news.com/

This events directly or indirectly affects our life & actions. In absence of better understanding many times we took actions which one will never take if he knows how the things are shaped in predetermine way.

This may look conspiracy type but if you have history on your side you can easily understand this.

This also give you answer about present RE rate in India.

We all are heading towards a situation where patriotic word may go out of dictionary. Greed will lead people to destroy their own culture & nation for their personal monetary benefit.

If you think any market in world like socks,bond,commodities or RE are free then check above website.

hope this will help you all get better understanding of how the world is ruled for last 300 years.

DhImAn said...

Meh, Vik hasn't posted anything new, and this is an interesting enough conversation, because RE is about economics, which can't be separated from a discussion about politics, corruption etc.

In a certain sense I view these as a continuum of the same broad topic.

So here goes.

I love it when someone takes the trouble to write, point by point, their argument. It makes debunking their argument that much easier.

This Sujata Rajpal's naivete would be cute if it weren't laced with so much misinformation.

1) If you misuse public money, you can’t get away scot free, regardless of who you are or who you are related to or who you know in the echelons of power.

This article by Matt Taibbi is a must read: Looting Main Street.

Read it and tell me how this case is any better than the worst corruption cases in India or elsewhere. JPM paid, and did get away scot free.

2) If you have a grudge against a public servant, you know how to seek redress. And you know you will get it, regardless of who she is or who she is related to.

Hahaha. Ever seen wikileaks? Or ever seen anybody in the US government convicted for anything? Wow, all the criminals exist outside of government employ!

3) You are held accountable for what you do irresepctive of who you are or what strings you pull or what ever you can do to hush it all up.

Yeah right. Bernie Madoff was prosecuted only after he confessed. Until then, he got away scot free for a decade or more. Heard of the Waco county massacre? Heard of anyone getting convicted or even prosecuted?

4) The CEO’s kid and the cleaning lady’s children go to the same school, learn the same lessons and have an equal opportunity when they step out in the real world.

Yeah. CEO's kids go to swanky private schools, or public schools in the classiest of neighborhoods, where it costs several million dollars to own a home, and several thousands per month to rent an apartment. Sure, the cleaning lady's kids go there.

5) There is no caste column in the school application forms or in the company service records. And it is not the yardstick with which someone gauges you and treats you.

See the US census form, questions 8 and 9. That's two out of 10 questions, or 20% of the questions about race. It says clearly there that the government needs this information because it makes race specific laws. So your school did not ask you the question? Who cares? Your answers are all in a federal database, forever. Same difference.

To be continued...

DhImAn said...

Continued...

6) No one looks down upon you if you don’t speak their language. Or no one looks up at you if you speak a language “superior” than theirs.

Yeah, they only look down upon your skin color. Remember, Hitler was a product of that most sophisticated of countries at the time - Germany.

There is a white ceiling in the west, which is never breached. It may be "breached" for public show (nautanki) as in the case of Obama becoming president; but if you look at the deepest and highest levels of power in the world, the folks there are invariable white anglo saxons.

Check this out.

There is only one country in the world where there is and was no slavery - yep - India. That says something about discrimination, don't you think?


7) Religion is a personal question like one’s age and salary. It is certainly not the USP of political parties to ride to power or pull someone down.

Ha - ever heard of an atheist in power in the US, or in the UK or in Germany? Heck, these countries tout their Judeo-Christian heritage, their Judeo-Christian legal system and whatnot. In fact, if you are not Judeo-Christian, you can never get really high. You'll encounter subtle roadblocks that will invariably keep you at heel.

8) You don’t have to answer ‘where is your native?’ from even a bank clerk just because you look different. And get treated differently as a result.

Sure you do. Don't you fill out all that crap information every time you enter the US or whatever? Your bank clerk may not ask you your "native" so directly, but they do bring it up in conversation, as in - "So, which part of India are you from?"

And, f**k me, but why is the question offensive? I'm proud to be from India and I don't mind shouting it in your face, dude.

9) Your single status does not worry your colleagues, neighbours or their visiting relatives. And your sexual prowess is not a mater of public debate.

Yes, it does, and yes it is. Most cultures consider marriage, family and kids a virtue - and it is only stupid parents who don't care about their children settling down, having kids, leading a happy and fulfilling life. If you are a single female, (or even a single male) and think that having a family, marrying or settling down are such quaint, old fashioned concepts, then I got some choice names to call you. Just ask.

10) You will not die from the bite of a street dog. Or from a passing mosquito. Or from a little insect in your soppu.

Hahaha. You might die from salmonella poisoning in your eggs or or from antibiotic resitant superbugs in your meat.

You could also be ingesting feces in your leafy greens, or any number of toxic chemicals in your vegetables.

Ever heard of the West Nile virus? Yes, the big bad mosquitoes are having a field day in the US, and yes, people have died from it. By the way, this causes encephalitis, something far worse than malaria.

DhImAn said...

Oh, I am not saying that India is not populated by a majority of a**hole pieces of sh*t moth**f***ers.

It is, and they are grinding human decency into the sewer every single day with their corrupt, greedy actions.

They are spitting every single day on their heritage which gave the human race its first and only real chance at being truly civilized.

But somewhere in the garbage, somewhere in the rotten sewage, there is a lotus that continues to bloom.

In the trash that passes for music these days, there are the sublime ragas of Indian Classical Music. Go here and listen to some: Indian Raaga

Or there is the perfect human language and a perfect machine language - Samskrtam - a glorious monument to Indian intellect. Go learn a little of it.

Or there is the Kailash temple at Ajanta - go see it if you haven't, or the Sun temple at Konark. Engineering that continues to astound. Try carving a temple out of granite. Not something tiny, but something hundreds of feet in each dimension and many storeys high. Make one mistake while carving it, and you're dead. There is no scope for correcting it, the stone already broke.

I could go on, but consider that the people who accomplished all this and much more weren't some strangers or westerners, or whoever. These were your own grandparents' grandparents or their grandparents.

You have their blood in your veins, and while there is all that rot everywhere you look, there is also that lotus still blooming, still not dead.

The sad truth is that irrespective of where you go on this wretched planet, that lotus of the sublime only flowers in India amid all that rot.

That lotus is the only thing capable of truly enriching your life - unless your enrichment consists of material things. If it is the latter, then I have no argument, go west.

Viswanadham said...

If they start a national housing exchange (NHE), which will be the sole medium for housing transactions, the black money, and the virtual investors will vanish from the market. Builders can not quote any super built-up area; the NHE will verify the data and then only put the house for sale at the price quoted by the seller. If no buyer comes forward, the seller will automatically adjust the price downwards until somebody finds the price reasonable. No booking before construction will be possible. All flats sold by NHE will be ready and right. I dream of the day when such an honest medium of housing transactions comes up in India. I also fear that the dirty politician - builder - babu nexus will never allow such clean mechanisms to come into existence.

Thambi said...

@DhImAn anne,

Sorry to say that all your logic/arguments are a load of crap. Losers always bask in the past glory and derive satisfaction out of it . The very people who built great temples, composed Ragas, wrote poetry also laid foundation for corruption, nepotism and feudalism due to which the present generation is suffering.

Anonymous said...

@DhImAn


Of course, every ill affecting India, there is a similar ill affecting someone in the west. The question is - how common it is and how likely it will impact you?

I lived half of my life in India and half in USA. Here is my experience and the experience of people I know.

1] How India used to be from 2000BC to 1980 is almost irrelvant fir this discussion. Maybe India was the best country on the earth. How does that matter to someone living here now? The only thing that matters is - how things are today and how they might be in the future!

2] Corruption - I must have paid small bribes at least 10 times in my life in India to get things done (license, passport, airport, traffic police and so on.) All the people I know in India from small serviceman to businesman have paid small and big bribes in their life (income tax, govt. officers, policians and so on). In almost all the cases, they were on the right side of the law but had to bribe just because the person in authority will not do the things for them that should have done in the first place.

Contrast this with my experience in the west. I have never needed to pay a bribe. If something needed to be done for me by a person in authority , it has been always done without any problems. All the people I know of have same experience. I don't know of even one person who has paid a bribe here.

The congressman of my district was extracting money from defence contractors. He is currently convicted and in jail. I know of at least 10 politicians here that have been convicted of corruption and are in jail now. Unfortunately I know of many corrupt politicians in India and none of them have been convicted of anything.

You keep on posting links to articles and keep on saying that Goldman Sachs or some other firm did something corrupt. Clearly you do not like financial bailouts. I don't like them either. But I fail to see which law was broken and where the corruption is. Instead of just posting links to the article can you elaborate on which specific law has been broken?


3] Racism:

I know of plenty of discrimination in India. Sometimes it is against the law but happens anyway - (Muslims can't buy house here, dalits can't enter this temple, special treatment provided to white foreigners)

Some times it is encouraged by law ( mandatory caste/religion questions everywhere, Reservations etc.)

USA as a whole has very little discrimination by law. The example you provide of the census form is BS- Every form clearly states that you don't have to answer these questions and I never do.

The against law social kind of discrimination exists in some places but I have never seen it in action and neither has anyone I know. So I would say that it is at much lower level than in India.

4] What are you trying to say about west nile virus and antibiotic treated meat? You are being truly ridiculous if you are implying that risks to someone's health in USA are as bad as they are in India. If you are only saying that there are some risks to one's health in in USA then yo are right. But when compared to India the risks to one's health in USA are almost negligible.

Anonymous said...

@DhImAn


Of course, every ill affecting India, there is a similar ill affecting someone in the west. The question is - how common it is and how likely it will impact you?

I lived half of my life in India and half in USA. Here is my experience and the experience of people I know.

1] How India used to be from 2000BC to 1980 is almost irrelvant fir this discussion. Maybe India was the best country on the earth. How does that matter to someone living here now? The only thing that matters is - how things are today and how they might be in the future!

2] Corruption - I must have paid small bribes at least 10 times in my life in India to get things done (license, passport, airport, traffic police and so on.) All the people I know in India from small serviceman to businesman have paid small and big bribes in their life (income tax, govt. officers, policians and so on). In almost all the cases, they were on the right side of the law but had to bribe just because the person in authority will not do the things for them that should have done in the first place.

Contrast this with my experience in the west. I have never needed to pay a bribe. If something needed to be done for me by a person in authority , it has been always done without any problems. All the people I know of have same experience. I don't know of even one person who has paid a bribe here.

The congressman of my district was extracting money from defence contractors. He is currently convicted and in jail. I know of at least 10 politicians here that have been convicted of corruption and are in jail now. Unfortunately I know of many corrupt politicians in India and none of them have been convicted of anything.

You keep on posting links to articles and keep on saying that Goldman Sachs or some other firm did something corrupt. Clearly you do not like financial bailouts. I don't like them either. But I fail to see which law was broken and where the corruption is. Instead of just posting links to the article can you elaborate on which specific law has been broken?

Anonymous said...

3] Racism:

I know of plenty of discrimination in India. Sometimes it is against the law but happens anyway - (Muslims can't buy house here, dalits can't enter this temple, special treatment provided to white foreigners)

Some times it is encouraged by law ( mandatory caste/religion questions everywhere, Reservations etc.)

USA as a whole has very little discrimination by law. The example you provide of the census form is BS- Every form clearly states that you don't have to answer these questions and I never do.

The against law social kind of discrimination exists in some places but I have never seen it in action and neither has anyone I know. So I would say that it is at much lower level than in India.

4] What are you trying to say about west nile virus and antibiotic treated meat? You are being truly ridiculous if you are implying that risks to someone's health in USA are as bad as they are in India. If you are only saying that there are some risks to one's health in in USA then yo are right. But when compared to India the risks to one's health in USA are almost negligible.

Anonymous said...

Most of India’s 'middle class' earns between 1K and 2K

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Most-of-Indias-middle-class-earns-between-1K-and-2K/articleshow/6390170.cms

Having read the above article, I am in total disbelief. How can apartments cost $250,000 and up when average earnings are $250 a month.

Vies/comments appreciated

DhImAn said...

Anon @ 9:52AM and 9:53AM

I don't argue with criminals, which is what you are. US law requires you to complete all questions. See this.

Since you confessed that you didn't answer all the questions, you actually, truly are a criminal, and potentially the United States Government can throw you in prison for it.

It is good that you posted as anonymous, but it isn't that hard for the Feds to get your IP address, what with the Patriot Act and everything.

Be very, very careful, you may find yourself whisked away one night as your family sleeps, never to be heard from again, rendered in Gitmo or some other Federal prison.

P.S. Hope you understand dark humor.

DhImAn said...

@ Thambi:

Sorry to say that all your logic/arguments are a load of crap.

OK, how so? If you make an assertion, please back it up with some counterarguments that prove what you want to say. A blanket statement like that achieves nothing.

Losers always bask in the past glory and derive satisfaction out of it.

Fine. That is another generic statement. How is it relevant to your point? And on that note, what is your point?

Are you trying to say that I am a loser? Or are you trying to say that you are not, since you don't take pride in your heritage?

Don't speak in vague generalities, please; that is corrupting the art of debate.

The very people who built great temples, composed Ragas, wrote poetry also laid foundation for corruption, nepotism and feudalism due to which the present generation is suffering.

Again, how do you know? What is your source of information?

For instance, Panini wrote the BNF equivalent of the Sanskrit grammar. You claim that he also laid the foundation for corruption, nepotism and feudalism which is causing suffering to the current generation.

Do you have any shred of proof to back this up?

Or were you speaking in vague, generalized terms again?

Like I said, the first corruption is intellectual. Open your mind to what I said, and disprove me honestly. I'll take it in the right spirit.

What you have demonstrated is how easy it is to corrupt something intellectual; I posit that all other corruption merely follows this.

Anonymous said...

In addition to DhimAn's posting:

I too have lived in the US for more than 20 years, and in the past 10 years have been seeing more instances of overt establishment bias towards Christianity:

http://www.truth-out.org/troops-punished-after-refusing-attend-evangelical-concert62504

Apologies for digressing from real estate..

Anonymous said...

Quite interesting.

Well, sujata rampal's writing did expose some naivity on her part at some places and some places, spot on. And while dhiman exposes chinks in her armour, he does seem to take the opposite view for the sake of it and ignores the big picture.

US is a modern state where the ruling establishment has a tight leash on the public.The govt has every infomation on you from the salary you get to the breakfast you eat.One is never free(India is a lot freer for an individual in that sense, cos govt does not know half the details of half the population and knows no details of the other half).
Also you could as well understand the amount of control the US and western governments have on their citizens. And they are much disposed to maintain order in their sphere.And they primarily impose themselves on you through fear. The fear of getting caught. That works well to a reasonable extent.There are those who are not deterred,among whom,some go scot free while others dont. They beleive in preventing things before happening and they have been reasonably successful at it considering the liberal gun laws system in most states of US. Same with corruption as they make a few high profile arrests and make an example out of them. This works both ways as the public feels quite assured while the offenders think twice before indulging in corruption.But getting rid of corruption is an impossible task.No country is immune though the instances of it are noticeably lesser in US.

And CEO's son and a cleaner's son got to the same school.... does not warrant a reply or even worth a second thought, as the implications and assumptions are outrageously preposterous and baseless.

Su-Al.
(To be continued)

Anonymous said...

And about the race, language, caste and religion. The differences are manifold and quite subtle as dhiman has pointed out. If you are not a white christian,preferably an anglo-saxon, you would better be content with what you earn and do some spelling bees. If you are aming high, you are askin for trouble. But if you are asking abt the recent successes of other race people, there seems to be a method in that madness. As I have been beleiving for the last few years, the faux euphoria of barack's election would evaporate and he would leave his post after 4 years a thoroughly disgraced man.Having taken all the blame for the country's ills, he would have wished he never took the responsibility. Anyways, the white establishment would (if not already) successfully put all the blame on his shoulders and manipulate the opnion of the masses. Having known the 2008 presidential election as a rope to hang oneself with, the whites have wisely let a coloures person take the chair and they have retained all the levers to make him the public's favourite whippping boy by the time his time ends in 2013.
In india the discrminaton is only different but definitely exists in all ts manifestations.What is race in US is caste in India. Religion and language discrimination would be felt by anyone not belonging to the mainstream as much as in US.

And about culture, most cultures and people have their greatness with architecture and traditions and one cant quantify the greatest of them all as it s subjective.One thing I dont understand is the hullabaloo about losing virginity at school in US. Though not mentioning child marriage, I would have to point out that the nature has made you in such a way to beget children when your body is ready. Its only the middle class conservative prejudices that insists on 18 and not the nature. And the state which needs a grip on the subjects through the laws comes up with 18 or thereabouts. Any educated indivdual should thnk twice about burdenng him/herself with such prejudicial baggage. But it seems Indian education doesn't teach its students to think but only to never question traditions. As some chinese adage goes, In the pursuit of knowledge, you gain something and In the pursuit of wisdom, you always lose something. Looks to me we hold on to our unneccessary baggage without question.

Su-Al.

DhImAn said...

Su Al: "And while dhiman exposes chinks in her armour, he does seem to take the opposite view for the sake of it and ignores the big picture"

What I engaged in is a type of mathematical proof. It goes thusly:

Sujata Rampal: x > y

Me: y = 5; x = at most 5, so at best, x = y. Therefore x !> y.

In other words, Ms. Rampal meant to say - "Mera Bharat less mahan than the West because of these 10 reasons".

And I pointed out (whilst ignoring the big picture, as Su Al correctly says) - that in each of the 10 cases, there are things where the West is equally culpable if not worse.

Hence, Sujata Rampal is wrong.

This is a way of proving (or disproving) statements using logic.

My full spectrum views are rather exhaustive, and frankly I'd probably offend everyone if I actually said what I felt.

As for teenage pregnancies - well, I don't disagree that when nature's ready, that's the appropriate time. The issue with the West is of "f**k and forget" - i.e., make a girl pregnant and then make yourself scarce.

Raising a child without a father, or with a druggie for one is a surefire way to ruin at least three lives - including one that matters the most - that of the child.

The reason the child matters most is simple. If that child is raised like a subhuman, it will grow up with problems, then one day we'll all be wondering why some idiot kid brought a gun to school and shot twenty kids, or some such thing.

IOW, it will destroy decency in society. Oh wait - that already seems to be happening.

Since man is a social animal, we have to accept that our children be raised in a manner befitting humans, i.e., in a caring and affectionate way. For that to happen, teenage pregnancies in families, such as child brides in India are OK - in my opinion - and teenage pregnancies in the west are not.

This is a generalization, of course - and to be specific, there could be a case in the west where the teenage girl's parents were supportive and raised the child with dignity and love; as opposed to cruel in-laws who tortured the teenage bride and her child - in which specific case that family in the West would be better.

That's my honest view. Sorry for all the digressions. This whole forum has grown connected together; while I personally know nobody here, it feels like Samix, Batman, Su Al, Bindaas Bhai, Sabbalseshu, not to mention Shailesh and Vik and everyone else are all like old friends.

So it doesn't feel that strange discussing all this.

DhImAn said...

Oh, and one more thing. I am unabashedly proud of my Indian heritage.

I actually studied Sanskrit (not just like the Class 10 thing) but further, as a mathematical entity. I did not learn classical music, but I want to, and I am an engineer whose primary love is failure in systems.

Search high and low; find me a culture in the world that has such safeguards against failure built into it by design as Indian culture and I promise, I'll join you in promoting it right away.

Let me give you an example. Akshaya Tritiya. On one day, the culture tells you - go buy a little gold.

You probably take it for granted, and either do, or simply ignore it. But as a society, Hindus go out and buy a few hundred kilograms of gold on that one day. (This one thing alone makes the gold market one of the most seasonal markets in the world.)

That takes physical metal out of the hands of the rich, and into the hands of the common man.

One day, say the rich coerce the government to confiscate gold. Very easy to do in the West, but in India - it becomes a physically insurmountable task; how to go about collecting a few grams of gold from a million people, one person at a time.

This simple system acts as a de facto check on power. But the beauty is that it is integrated into the culture. North India or South, Tamil or Punjabi, Gujarati or Manipuri, people do the exact same thing.

Can you imagine such a system coming about by force or by accident? In a universe where entropy (chaos) can only grow, such order can only be by very smart design.

You may not appreciate the significance of that immediately, but I urge you to think about it. Read Antal Fekete, or Austrian Economics, or Ayn Rand, or Ron Paul - and then look at the way India implements free market economics so elegantly in its culture.

Yes, Indians today are bent upon destroying that culture and everything, and yes, I can see the rot everywhere, but that does not make me ashamed of my heritage.

So I'll say it again, I am unabashedly proud of being from Bharatvarsha.

Jayant said...

In light of the Indian Banks restructuring the loans i.e. hiding the losses, it would be interested to know how this trickery was enacted as a law in USA.

Wall Street celebrates accounting rule changes designed to hide losses

By Andre Damon
3 April 2009

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) voted Thursday to let US banks set their own prices for assets in earnings reports, regardless of current prices.

The move, which was heavily lobbied for by Wall Street, is expected to increase bank earnings by 20 percent in the next quarter. Richard Dietrich, an accounting professor at Ohio State University, told Bloomberg News that the decision would allow Citigroup to reduce its reported losses by 50 to 70 percent.

Banks are currently required to calculate their earnings, under so-called "mark to market" accounting rules, according to the current market value of the securities they hold, but the new measure would allow them to value assets using their own internal models where the assets would otherwise be sold into a "distressed" market. Banks have argued that markets are not pricing financial assets fairly, causing credit to dry up and exacerbating the crisis.

This is, in fact, an argument for allowing them to conceal their losses and cook their financial books. It stands in flagrant contradiction to the financial elite's supposed commitment to "free market" principles. Such principles are, in practice, raised when expedient—to justify corporate downsizing and wage-cutting, for example—and discarded when they undermine profits.

Most companies will be allowed to make the accounting changes in the second quarter, but some will be allowed to apply them this quarter. A number of companies had pushed for the new rules to be applied retroactively , but FASB did not go that far.

The move drew criticism from accountants and some industry groups, which said that it would only impede the functioning of the financial system by allowing banks to distort their balance sheets. Others criticized FASB for overtly bowing to pressure from the banks and Congress, which has been pressing for the change as the banking crisis has deepened.

Anonymous said...

Dhiman:

Man certainly is a social animal,it befits him that he is raised in the presence of people. But I have come to beleive,though there runs the risk of being accused as heretic, that a father's presence is not too neccessary for the well-being of the child. (ridiculous...maybe but a hypothesis nevertheless). A fatherly presence would suffice not neccessarily a father. There are precedents to this way of life as documented in tibet and our own kerala among the nair community. Look it up.Though this might sound anarchist point of view which is what the straight middle classes are taught to think, it creates a new order,a sort of new normal and there is evidence too that this brings about a peaceful society since whatever a man earns would not be for his own progeny. That takes the incentive off going out of your way to create wealth. It is tantalising to think it might put a natural dampener on corruption. It roots out corruption at the same time gives its weaker female members of the society a consideable stake and say in the family and society than anything the modern society with its victorian puritanism and medieval christian values has cared to provide its fairer sex. (Mind you, this works only if the society in its entirety chooses to take a homogenous approach in this issue)

Secondly,I beleive in the wisdom of the crowds if they are not coerced. Considering 20% of humanity lives in India, I would not be surprised at the aggressive surviving skills. But I suspect the idea of attributing scientific and economic forethought behind straightforward pecuniary actions like buying up gold to showcase/increase your wealth is but fallacy which derives its legitimacy from some right wing thinkers. Its akin to beleiving Indians increased in numbers by deliberate design mainly by Indian women's clothing which fails to show skin or Indian men's inability to show emotional attachment up until ou previous generation.(Incidentally both revs up men's testosterone). Though plausible we identify its sophistry.

Also I understand you as bullish on Gold. I would have been too if there was a free market economy and if economics were left to the wisdom of crowds and nature.But it isn't.Gold in 1979 was $300 and $1200 now. Other commodities say even ordinary rubber was less than Rs.10 and now Rs.180 and the same with other commodities. Its the polcy of the nations to not let Gold thrive. As long as modern nations rule the roost, we will never see gold in its true value.I suspect with the true value of gold, we shall see nature's fury unleashed,which mankind is not too eager to welcome,I would say.

There are other issues associated with this, the expounding of which will make people weary.

Su-Al.

Anonymous said...

The world's best countries

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

Anonymous said...

It now feels like December 2007.

Crash of global stock markets seems imminent.

Lets see what happens

DhImAn said...

Su-Al: Mind you, this works only if the society in its entirety chooses to take a homogenous approach in this issue.

Nope. Never works. Too prone to failure when a few people decide that way isn't for them. Witness the failure of communism.

The only thing that does work reliably enough is when people have incentive to do the right thing.

Even fear of retribution does not work - witness crumbling Western civilizations where there is a violent revolution or war every generation or so.

But I suspect the idea of attributing scientific and economic forethought behind straightforward pecuniary actions like buying up gold to showcase/increase your wealth is but fallacy which derives its legitimacy from some right wing thinkers.

Like I said, you need to think about it. People who speak 200 different languages and dialects, eat 200 different types of food, dress in different clothes, and generally don't even like each other that much (Tamil/Punjabi) all doing the exact same thing on the exact same day?

Please, don't tell me you can't see at least something strange here.

I would have been too if there was a free market economy...

Read FOFOA. One revaluation event will be enough. The key word is event - you can't keep a system in a state that requires energy to maintain forever. Like you can't keep water boiling in the Arctic forever or like you can't keep water frozen in the desert forever.

It requires energy to maintain a system in anything other than a default (lowest energy) state, so the one event of running out of energy is sufficient to create a transition.

It requires considerable force of law, considerable international intrigue, considerable war, considerable brainwashing etc to keep humanity accepting worthless promises in lieu of real money. In other words, it requires a considerable expense of energy to keep the system going.

Therefore it isn't a natural unstressed state the system is in, and must therefore fail at some point. That's the one event that Another, FOA and FOFOA have been talking about.

You, my dear Su-Al, have considerable prowess in logic. I respect that, but I humbly suggest that you use knowledge of the past and some imagination along with that logic - you'll clearly see where the world is headed.

DhImAn said...

Must read: http://www.lewrockwell.com/gatto/gatto-uhae-pre.html

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

Su-Al: Secondly, I believe in the wisdom of the crowds if they are not coerced.
Sorry dear. I can't agree with you on this point. There is always an instigator in the crowd and the crowd follows madly. Look at history and you will see many illogical/insane examples of crowds. Don’t every try to put human behavior in to an abstract equation. Any level of complex mathematics equation cannot explain or fit human behavior. We can only make short time predictions on of human/crowd behavior based on just inertia at that moment.
as a sane human, its good make our own wisdom using existing data. ( don't just follow crowd)

Anonymous said...

Laloo:
I was not mentioning the wisdom of the crowds in the traditonal sense which conventionally may mean crowd psychology.
Please refer to the book by James surowiecki, for the meaning of wisdom of crowds in academic sense.Crowds here is meant to be diverse collection of independantly deciding individuals.No manipulation, no instgation. Hence the term no coercion/cajoling earlier on.

Su-Al.

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

@Su-Al. Please refer to the book by James surowiecki, for the meaning of wisdom of crowds in academic sense. Crowds here is meant ………………………………………….
It is good to read books, but we can’t forget that the information in the book is the author’s point of view about the subject and solely limited to the author’s experiences and thinking.
@Su-Al. Crowds here is meant to be diverse collection of independantly deciding individuals.
Again the same logic comes here.

Jayant said...

Slavery has taken a new form.

Look who's driving the realty boom

AUGUST 24, 2010

If you thought that all the big bucks entering India were through the stock market route or in setting up businesses in high growth sectors like IT or telecom, you were wrong. A large portion of FDI (foreign direct investment) is now being invested into India's housing sector.

The FDI in India's real estate and housing market jumped almost 80 times or 8000% between 2005 and 2010. In FY05, the FDI in this sector was a mere Rs 1.7 bn. This has however increased exponentially to Rs 136 bn in FY10.

In the past 10 years, cumulative FDI inflows into this sector totaled Rs 381 bn or US $8.5 bn. This makes it fourth on the list of FDI inflows in the past decade. What is surprising is that this sector did not even feature in the top ten list in the 15 year period post liberalisation from 1991-2006.


But, due to the huge boom in the property market across the country, FDIs are not confined to metros and big cities. Since 2005, real estate projects have been approved by RBI offices in Bhopal, Kanpur, Kochi, Jaipur and Panaji, amongst others.

Offshore banking zone, Mauritius has contributed the maximum to FDI fund inflow to India, totaling 42% of total funds in the past decade.

Anonymous said...

Red hot chinese economy and US$1 Trillion worth of ghost homes in China. A report by the Chinese State Electricity Board says that about homes for about 200 million Chinese lay vacant. This is a staggering amount of ghost homes/towns/cities that is laying vacant. Even at conservative estimate this is more than $1 trillion. Whats in store for India?

Desi Batman said...

Unaffordable apartments in a Mumbai slum

I think title should have been: 'Crorepati in Jhopadpati'

Anonymous said...

1 Crore for 2BHK in Kharghar. Yes - if you have a crore and 20, Kesar Exotica is for you....go book now or else live in a slum somewhere...however there is not much difference. GO NOW.

Bindas Bhai said...

Vik and others,

Please do not loose hope, as I mentioned earlier we are on the last lap of RE bubble. I personally feel that we will see a major correction starting from April 2011.

Keep posting !!!

All the best guys.

Bindas Bhai

Anonymous said...

for those of you who are expecting major correction, keep dreaming, property prices will not correct more then 10% even if they will which i really don't think so.

One of my friend works for icici bank told me there are huge number of buying who wants to buy house but they can't because prices are high, whenever there is small drop in prices they will line up for buying property and prices will either remain stable or go higher.

and as per current trend in I.T. companies salaries are going to be raised by 10% more this year which will only increase buying power which means no more fall.

buy flats if you can afford it and don't wait

Rakesh

Anonymous said...

while i was in united states, i noticed houses was cheaper in some parts (Texas, Michigan etc,.) but there are less jobs there, there are large number of spare houses available for sale, but there its not like india.

In india there is huge huge never ending demand for house the only factor is price. Houses are not affordable for common man but best of them are still able to buy and invest and they will keep housing prices high. I don't see supply exceeding demand for next 10 years which will keep prices high. Yes do not expect prices will double in few years but they will not fall for sure

Rakes

Anonymous said...

80,000 houses lying vacant is biggest joke. I stay in thane and there are only 4-5 apartments in my building owned by investors out of 40 and they are also given on rent. If you go and ask broker to show you apartments on rent, i bet they won't even account for more then 1% houses in those area, rest of them are owned and occupied by owners or rentals.

more then 50% flats are sold out in brand new projects in thane in new projects and rest are available for exuberant prices which they can expect to sale in 3-4 years while project reaches completion.

Rakesh

Desi Batman said...

Mr Rakesh,

Below is the search result of properties for sale in Mumbai. I got this from TOI classified (magicbricks.com) as of Aug 30 2010.

There may be many more that are not listed on website. Do you suggest magicbricks.com is fake? or these are not true sellers and have listed properties for having fun?

32408 Properties Found displaying: 1-50
You searched for: Multistorey Apartment, India, Maharashtra, Mumbai


Moreover you think crores or lakhs of Rs are just lying on street for people to simply pickup and buy RE?

To support higher RE and demand, your argument is based on IT company increasing 10% pay? Really? If so, then just pray (ALOT) that USA doesn't go into further deep recession.

I would appreciate if you could elaborate on your logic...
What is average pay of IT person and What is average cost of housing in Mumbai.

Let me know if flat today worth 1 crore is worth 2 or 3 crores in next year. Also those are selling at 2 to 6 crores today if they are sold next year at 4 to 12 crores.

Desi Batman said...


@ Rakesh 9:58 AM

One of my friend works for icici bank told me there are huge number of buying who wants to buy house but they can't because prices are high, whenever there is small drop in prices they will line up for buying property and prices will either remain stable or go higher.


ya everyone wants to buy house, I am also lined up for buying. So whats new thing here?

These huge number of people are lined up because..
1. They want to stay in house
2. They want to have RE as an investment.

Lining up at ICICI or any bank today is because:
1. Can afford current interest rate
2. Have a job/business that pays today to support EMI.

Talking about IT sector ---
There is very little room in IT for getting increase in pay, because outsourcing IT jobs from USA will become expensive. Why do I know this? because I know general billing rates. IT companies are working on thin margins and mostly can afford only freshers. Trend to have 1 senior resource for every 10 freshers (used to be for every 4 freshers).

Also do you think RBI will keep rates low forever (10+ years) to support these nonsense, heard of inflation?

Desi Batman said...

India growth based on global investors. Party will last as long as these investors squeeze every last drop of juice.

Developed countries economics are in bad shape, globalization has made it easy for investors to move the money where they feel to get little more bang for their buck.

Once these investors find place of little more returns... ya India will shine.. bright with fireworks. ;-)

Welcome to globalazation.



Foreign Direct Investment in India

The services sector comprising financial and non-financial services attracted 21 per cent of the total FDI equity inflow into India, with FDI worth US$ 4.4 billion during April-March 2009-10, while construction activities including roadways and highways attracted second largest amount of FDI worth US$ 2.9 billion during the same period. Housing and real estate was the third highest sector attracting FDI worth US$ 2.8 billion followed by telecommunications, which garnered US$ 2.5 billion during the financial year 2009-10. The automobile industry received FDI worth US$ 1.2 billion while power attracted FDI worth US$ 1.4 billion. during April-March 2009-10, according to data released by DIPP.

Anonymous said...

Bindaas bhai ko akal aayi to Rakesh is talking like a fool. We always have a few fools on this blog.

Rakesh: Read what Desi batsman has written. India and many other countries are sitting on an edge and will fall anytime now. Govt. can do only so much and they are done with their propping up the markets. If US sees a double dip, the fall in Asian countries will be faster and sooner. All the partying will get over. People will get worried aout EMIs and a salaried job even if it would pay 50% of their current salary.

Anonymous said...

Message to the Housing Sales and Finance Crime Syndicate

When you co-opt a very basic human need(housing in this case) and constrain the supply through marketing, forcing buyers to pay multiples of it’s actual worth in order to profit, you’ve got bad karma coming your way.

Anonymous said...

This from STRATFOR:

“Rumors have circulated in China that People’s Bank of China (PBC) Gov. Zhou Xiaochuan may have left the country. The rumors appear to have started following reports on Aug. 28 which cited Ming Pao, a Hong Kong-based news agency, saying that because of an approximately $430 billion loss on U.S. Treasury bonds, the Chinese government may punish some individuals within PBC, including Zhou….”

Anonymous said...

If he did I wouldn’t blame him, the Chinese don’t mess around. They’ll deploy the execution bus in a minute, when that pulls up in front of your house, it’s not going to be a good day.

China is not like India. In India, corruption is rampant and a way of life. Land of ignorant thieves.

Bindas Bhai said...

Rakesh,

What you are saying could be true and having said that I strongly believe that we follow herd mentality, The market just needs a trigger to fall. I feel the trigger will come from US followed by Europe, Japan and China.

Demand is huge in India and from long term prescriptive and for actual user anytime is a good time provided you can service the EMI with ease.

I strongly feel that Mumbai will see a major correction I could be wrong but definitely the odds are against the bulls.

All the best guys,

Bindas Bhai

DhImAn said...

@ Bindas Bhai:

Who are you and what have you done with the real Bindas Bhai?

Rainbow Vistas said...

Giving a different perspective about the real estate sector,
especially the affordable housing segment
Thanx For Sharing Information
http://www.rainbowvistas.in/

Bindas Bhai said...

The Daily Crux: OK, so you don’t think the Fed will go that far. But what if the government got involved and tried to inflate its way out by issuing massive amounts of Treasury bonds to the Fed? Wouldn’t that create inflation?

Robert Prechter: If the government tried to do that, bond holders would get spooked, and interest rates would go up and stay ahead of the printing. At the same time, other credit prices — municipal, corporate and consumer — would implode. When the supply of credit is far bigger than the supply of money — and it is by a huge margin — the value of old credit can contract faster than new bonds can be printed. The net result would still be deflation.

But this is not the most likely scenario. Have you noticed that even the Fed chairman has been telling Congress it needs to stop spending and borrowing? The Fed doesn’t want this to happen any more than other creditors do.

If the Treasury’s interest rates do soar, it will not likely be due to inflation fears but to fear of government default. If the government is forced to pay higher and higher rates, it will become a black hole for money. Spiraling Treasury rates would suck money from other sources, causing banks, municipalities and companies to fail, ruining all of their debts, which would be deflationary.

Signals are clear US is in for deflation so sit on cash.

All The best Guys!!!

Bindas Bhai

Bindas Bhai said...

Explainer: Why the Fed's Hands are Tied When it Comes to Deflation

With consumer prices rising so little that they look like a deflating soufflé, Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke now has publicly faced the fact that the Fed must fight deflation rather than the central bank's old nemesis, inflation. At a meeting in Jackson Hole, Wyo., this week, he said what he had to say -- that deflation is "not a significant risk for the United States at this time." Nonetheless, in time-honored Fed speak, he added that the Federal Reserve "will strongly resist deviations from price stability in the downward direction.”

As the New York Times reporter commented in the August 27, 2010, report, "It was his most robust statement to date that the Fed would do its part to avoid a Japanese-style deflation from taking hold."

Watch out, below! Here comes more quantitative easing, which means that the Fed will create more money on its books and start buying up banks' bad loans to provide them with more money to lend. But the Fed can only go so far with this policy, as Bob Prechter explains in an interview he did with Justin Brill, managing editor of The Daily Crux, a financial daily digest website.

All The best Guys

Bindas Bhai

Bindas Bhai said...

DhImAn said...

@ Bindas Bhai:

Who are you and what have you done with the real Bindas Bhai?

11:17 PM

I am clearing my stock in Mumbai and investing in Kharadi Pune. I see value over there, if the prices go up I will get better returns then Mumbai and if the prices fall I will loose less in comparison with Mumbai.

I hope i am on the right track.

All the best guys!!!

Bindas Bhai

Anonymous said...

BB,
Whe you read and post so may US articles, I'm sure you are aware of US RE prices. Why go to Pune from Mumbai. Why not invest in the US directly. You can easily get flats and really good flats in good parts of US for like 20-25 lacs and the rental return is far greater then INdia. Then why waste your time and energy in India market. It has already peaked and is a massive rat race there. It will be another 3-4 years till the prices drop in India to 60% of their current value. Whereas you may see your investments safe in US.

Desi Batman said...

Yesterday, I was discussing the RE prices in India with my colleague in USA. He says 'WOW, what do these people do?'

Best explanation I could come up with was:
1. Black money. I tried to explain the effect of no taxes paid by corelating to tax free weekednd in USA. Well, tax free weekend is limited to school usage items only.. and the sale rises in that weekend. Just expand this to everything available in store and you will see everything getting sold.. a demand!
2. Corruption. CWG, day to day bribes.
3. Offshoring of jobs.
4. Four to five people living in 300 sq. foot apartment. They are happy to live that way while they rent the house they just bought. Basically compromising quality of life for money earned.
5. Investment of foreign funds.
6. Policies in USA are no more employee friendly, it has started to hurt countrymen.. policies like Social Security Taxes, Tax breaks for rich folks, Healthcare costs, etc..

Do add more to this list.

Anonymous said...

@Desi above:
One of the biggie would be Optimism that housing never goes down and India is becoming a superpower and going to overtake USA in a few years. Indians are so great that Americans run after them to get their projects done.And that's the reason they send jobs to India. Not because they are cheap labour but becuase people in India have brains. Rest of the world is full of fools.

People are so high on dope and optimism, that they cannot see any fall in the next 10-20 years. All they see is growth. This sentiment lets people to invest more and more in RE. TO save for their daughter's marriage, for son's MBA in USA etc. or solely for speculative purposes. Greed is good but right now what I see is excessive lust for money in all parts of the country.

Jaisi karni waisi bharni.

Anonymous said...

Just heard that India reported 8.8% GDP, which is really high I think. It means inflation is returning and more interest rate increases.

Secondly I heard that India along with all BRIC is in a major Bond bubble. I bet foreign investers will run away from India on one bad news and would crash the economy in a major way.

Anonymous said...

Vik,
Post a new article. This thread is getting bigger and slower.

Are you trying to inflate it like the RE bubble.

Jai Hind

Desi Batman said...

Looking at Indians and India are two different perspective.

Looking at Indians feeling is 'Anything is Possible' and looking at India feeling is 'Nothing is Possible'.

What to believe and not believe.

For India, one crore is nothing, all news and everything they talk in atleast of 100's of crores figures. But for a Indian, one crore is HUGE amount.

Keep buying RE folks. Bigger the bubble faster it will burst. I am getting impatient now. PLEASE BUY.

Anonymous said...

I am VP in # 3 US investment Bank ( ya you guys start hating me) .. desibatman is fool.. my kid is does not go to US public school. .in fact none of my collegue's kids are in public school though they claimed to be good in middlesecx county in NJ. I am at least 7-8 level down below CEO..

Desi Batman said...

Anon above.

So by being VP in #3 investment bank makes you eligible to start calling people names. WOW!!

Any sense in your nonsense? What was your point by the way? Just wanted all to know that you are VP and your kids do not goto Public schools? oh thank now we know where stupid bankers stay - in Middlesex county in NJ !

Middlesex county is mini India, many working in Banks/Wall Street. Ya you are obviously stinking rich, way above normal people and hence you look down everyone in public schools.

Grow up and be and act like VP.

rajni sharma said...

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Nd one of your best post...Thanks
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