Friday, September 10, 2010

Builders resorting to distress sale?

Article Link

Hiral Shah, who has been scouting new residential projects in Kandivali to buy a house, got two rude shocks. “No one is quoting less than Rs 1.2 crore for a 1,000 sq ft house in Kandivali! And surprisingly, I also discovered that almost half the flats I saw in the two new projects were vacant,” said Shah.

Even as developers maintain that sales are brisk, crevices are beginning to show up, and one indication of this is that some developers are resorting to distress sales – disposing of homes by offering as much as 40-50 per cent discount. Zen Towers in Tardeo is a case study. Set to complete in December this year, you can buy space for Rs 15,000 per sq feet as opposed to the market rate of Rs 25,000.

But here’s the catch: you must make a bulk buy of at least 10,000 square feet.

“The market is over-heated, and with a price correction being anticipated, investments are drying up. Though big builders can hold on, it is the small players who have started to feel the pinch, and are creating distressed assets even as market sentiment is positive,” said Atul Khekade, partner, Netz Realty, a property consultancy firm that has sensed opportunity here.

A builder, who is selling bulk stock at 40 per cent discount, said on condition of anonymity, “As big builders go on increasing rates for their projects, the average market rate is pushed up. They get funding through FDIs or big private equity firms. But when rates reach a brink, even investors who fund small projects like mine become wary. One Gujarati investor group that had promised to pump some money into my project backed out. Now I am desperate.”

Real estate analysts speculate the cracks could widen. Pankaj Kapoor, Managing Director, Liases Foras said, “Creation of distressed assets is an indication that the residential market will undergo a correction, which could be to the tune of 25 per cent in the short term. This is not just because property prices are unrealistic, but also because a chunk of flats are being traded by investors instead of being bought by actual users.”

64 comments:

Anonymous said...

I as potential buyer is on a deep sleep, will only wake up when prices have dropped below 50%. Snooozzzz~~~~~

DhImAn said...

"Pankaj Kapoor, Managing Director, Liases Foras said, “Creation of distressed assets is an indication that the residential market will undergo a correction, which could be to the tune of 25 per cent in the short term. This is not just because property prices are unrealistic, but also because a chunk of flats are being traded by investors instead of being bought by actual users.”

So prices are unrealistic, and there is too much speculative trading going on, as opposed to actual consumption.

Can you spell bubble?

samix said...

I can just imagine, how people who have put down lacs and sold themselves to bank slavery will react if the market crashes the way it did in the US.

And, please for all you guys who are ready to let me know that India is not like America, I Know it!

Its just that markets are too unpredictable and anything can happen within them.

For the un-initiated, the Reserve Bank of India is drafting rules and regulations for derivatives trading, so my dear friends it won't be very long before our markets like to look like post 2008 American markets...

Vik said...

What are the pitfalls in the current derivatives trade which is causing RBI to act ? I would think clamping down on the marutius route would be enough reasons to crash the FDI and FII investment sentiment
However the money which enters the country also funds the projects which are run by politicians so who will bell the cat

Anonymous said...

But this is still different. We still put a large down payment on property unlike in US where 100% can be financed based on your credit score. Prices will not fall drastically, however if you go for ready to possess properties where prices have been jacked up higher than under-construction, the developers have become open to negotiation. however dont expect more than 200 to 500Rs. psf price drops. But it is happening. However almost every estate agent I have spoken to tells me that the prices have to go much lower and that is yet to happen. 20% drop is expect. So if you neeed to buy, buy read to possess while negotiating hard or from an investor. If you can wait and dont have the money in anycase....do so. It might be worth your while atleast 6 months.

Anonymous said...

Markets have already gone up 30% over the last one year with even lukewarm demand.

So even if it falls 30% from here, its not the fall we had all waited all these years.

A minimum 50% is what we we were looking at and thats what we shall get if we can hold our patience.

Anonymous said...

China's housing bubble at full bloom....here is evidence.

Latest Article (September 2010) from Andy Xie a noted Econmist:
http://www.cibmagazine.com.cn/Columnists/Andy_Xie.asp?id=1386&empty_flats_spell_trouble.html

Hugh Hendry Hedge Fund Manager from Eclectica Funds Management on China Property market:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektMQGbW3wk

AlJazeera programme on China's Empty cities - Ardos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektMQGbW3wk

James Chanos on China's Property Bubble due to burst in 2011.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POGX8_UDhh4

Anonymous said...

James Chanos, president of Kynikos Associates LP, and Stephen Roach, chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia, talk with Bloomberg's Kathy Burton about the outlook for China's economy.
They speak at the Bloomberg Markets Global Hedge Fund and Investor Summit in New York.

Interesting debate....must watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J4g-H--5yg

samix said...

Vik, I do not think that the RBI is drafting the guidelines to avoid a collapse or clamp down on illegal money coming in from Mauritius or anywhere, heck the big guns will never let this happen.

Unfortunately all markets in today's world is a casino and derivatives in the mother of all bet's, not so the Gold market, if you take the time to understand it(sans paper gold!).

Irrespective of how much you draft guidelines and set rules, you cannot take intoxication out of alcohol!

samix said...

here you go , while Europe clamps down on derivatives we are forming guideline to adopt it!

http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=122&func=view&catid=6&id=1271#1271

samix said...

anon @10:41, Yeah, I know India is different, I accept that hands down, but my point is that when the markets loose it, they loose it, everyone scrambles to get out at the same time,and there are no buyers, so you see where the chart goes in such a case ?

10:41 said...

@samix - this is 1041. The markets lose it, but in India the property market hasnt even though it has every reason to - excessive supply (yes its there and lots of it with investors as it should be in a bubble formation), escalating prices of properties and excessive Govt taxation to exploit the growing property values. bubble should burst....but it could take 2 years to deflate rather than burst....

samix said...

@1041

The markets lose it, but in India the property market hasnt even though it has every reason to

This is irrational exuberance, newton said that he can calculate the movements of the mass celestial bodies but the madness of the crowds.

but it could take 2 years to deflate rather than burst

Timing the bursting of a bubble is like walking a knifes edge, you say two years, I say tomorrow or even 10 years from now, we just don't know.

As sensible investors one's we know that a particular market is in a bubble, leverage it to the max, make as much money as you can and watch it blow off, this is what the smart money does!

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

Don't buy a house to save tax
Suresh Sadagopan / Mumbai September 12, 2010, 0:22 IST
It may not be a good investment given the current tax laws.

Saving tax is a pet preoccupation with our citizenry. Sometimes, it borders on the ridiculous. While saving taxes is a legitimate exercise, one needs to evaluate if it makes sense to make certain investments only to save tax.

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Investments, by definition, need to give a reasonable return after taxes. But, one cannot invest without considering the tenure, liquidity, risk potential, returns, suitability and so on for meeting goal. Tax efficiency is just one aspect of it.
Due to the rapid rise in the property value in the past five years, many have assumed that it will continue it’s upward rise, uninterrupted. It may or may not happen. However, it will not rise at a compounded 20 per cent, like it has in the past. It’s most likely to settle at a sedate single digit long-term growth rate of maybe 7-8 per cent. Massive increases in property prices have stalled the markets and transactions have come down.

Property is bought for residential use and as an investment. If it is for use as one’s home, then tax considerations recede into the background, as the buyer will use it for personal consumption. Let us examine the tax concessions for a self-occupied property.

For such a property (where the whole or part is not let out and no benefit is derived from it), the maximum interest permissible to be set off would be Rs 1.5 lakh. This is subject to the condition that the capital is borrowed on or after April 1, 1999. The deduction is Rs 30,000 a year for capital borrowed towards acquiring home property before April 1, 1999. Also, the acquisition/construction should be completed within three years from the end of the financial year in which capital was borrowed. The lender needs to certify in respect of the interest payable against the loan taken.

So, in case a person is taking a loan of Rs 50 lakh and the interest in the first year comes to Rs 5 lakh, he could avail a deduction of only Rs 1.5 lakh. The tax saved is Rs 46,350, assuming the borrower is in the highest tax slab. Hence, if tax saving is the pre-eminent consideration, it is going to be met only to a small extent. In this situation, an EMI in the region of Rs 50,000 per month would also be added and has to be carried on for years or two decades!

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/don/t-buyhouse-to-save-tax/407799/
check this

Don't buy a house to save tax
Suresh Sadagopan / Mumbai September 12, 2010, 0:22 IST
It may not be a good investment given the current tax laws.

Saving tax is a pet preoccupation with our citizenry. Sometimes, it borders on the ridiculous. While saving taxes is a legitimate exercise, one needs to evaluate if it makes sense to make certain investments only to save tax.

Investments, by definition, need to give a reasonable return after taxes. But, one cannot invest without considering the tenure, liquidity, risk potential, returns, suitability and so on for meeting goal. Tax efficiency is just one aspect of it.
Due to the rapid rise in the property value in the past five years, many have assumed that it will continue it’s upward rise, uninterrupted. It may or may not happen. However, it will not rise at a compounded 20 per cent, like it has in the past. It’s most likely to settle at a sedate single digit long-term growth rate of maybe 7-8 per cent. Massive increases in property prices have stalled the markets and transactions have come down.

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

cont....


Property is bought for residential use and as an investment. If it is for use as one’s home, then tax considerations recede into the background, as the buyer will use it for personal consumption. Let us examine the tax concessions for a self-occupied property.

For such a property (where the whole or part is not let out and no benefit is derived from it), the maximum interest permissible to be set off would be Rs 1.5 lakh. This is subject to the condition that the capital is borrowed on or after April 1, 1999. The deduction is Rs 30,000 a year for capital borrowed towards acquiring home property before April 1, 1999. Also, the acquisition/construction should be completed within three years from the end of the financial year in which capital was borrowed. The lender needs to certify in respect of the interest payable against the loan taken.

So, in case a person is taking a loan of Rs 50 lakh and the interest in the first year comes to Rs 5 lakh, he could avail a deduction of only Rs 1.5 lakh. The tax saved is Rs 46,350, assuming the borrower is in the highest tax slab. Hence, if tax saving is the pre-eminent consideration, it is going to be met only to a small extent. In this situation, an EMI in the region of Rs 50,000 per month would also be added and has to be carried on for years or two decades!

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

cont...
Again, people have the view that it is still a good idea, as an asset gets created. Many have the view that when one starts paying an EMI, the surplus cash will be used up and the chances of frittering away any surpluses comes down. While this is true, it also creates a long-term liability. This creates a problem in case of any income disruption. Especially in a situation when the loan taken requires two people to work, which is mostly the case today. If the husband and wife are working, and they have a small child at home, both of them have to continue working even if the lady wants to stay back to take care of the child.

Also, people are very mobile and their careers can take them to various cities or even abroad, over time. If they have invested in one city, say Mumbai, and they get transferred to, say, Delhi, they will have to put the house in Mumbai on rent and rent another in Delhi. This beats the very purpose of buying a home.

Also, the argument that in future, homes will become be unaffordable is also untenable. As it is, even today the prices in many suburban areas are unaffordable for most middle class households. Assuming a long-term increase of seven to eight per cent in property, it can clearly be bought at a later point when one has dropped the anchor. Till such time, it may be a good idea to stay in rented properties, which are available at reasonable prices. Typically, the annual rental is about three to four per cent of the value of the property. This gives one the flexibility and freedom to pursue opportunities unhindered.

In sum, buying a residential property for residential purposes makes sense if,

A person is clear that this is the city to settle;
Property price is fair
Buyer are prepared to shoulder the responsibility of repaying the loans for an extended period of time

Laaloo Prasad yadav said...

hi Vik,
pls delete "9:28 PM" message..

it has got scrambled, i have posted it again..

Anonymous said...

Must read: http://moneylife.in/article/4/8844.html

samix said...

The stock market is rallying, if this goes on, then we can comfortably expect another leg up in the RE market, 10:41, this is why I say that predicting a crash is so difficult, you never know what happens next !

shailesh said...

About Mumbai....

It’s broken society everywhere!

‘Broken society’ is the only word that comes to mind to describe what I see around me, already and not after half a century. Okay, inclusive growth is a buzzword, but most people think it happens somewhere to tribals in Orissa. It’s happening right here, in the mega-cities that are supposed to lead the charge that will make India a world superpower.

What, exactly, is the purpose of all this economic growth if people are going to die of primitive diseases, and
struggle even harder than previous generations did to survive? No politician or government can fix it. They tried that option in Britain , and look where it got them. It’s high time we stopped blindly celebrating success, and paid attention to what’s happening to people’s lives, and our society.

Anonymous said...

Shailesh@12:47PM

It is a very depressing story. But, there is always light at the end of the tunnel.

I spent one and a half decades in the United States and recently came back home to India. I have been called a fool by friends and family because: a) I left a job that paid me 150k+/yr in the US to join a government (teaching) job that barely pays me $1000 a month. b) I did not take US citizenship because it was too hard for me to give up being an Indian c) I declined a private sector job in Bangalore that would have paid me 40 lakhs a year because I wanted to serve my country. d) I put my kids in a government run school (KV) when I can afford to send them to private schools that determine my kids' admissibility based on how much I make.

I work in a well established IIT and it is a pleasure coming to work everyday. We are trying to make a difference. The recently retired CVC of India said that only 20% of Indians are dry honest and they are that way because they are that way. They cannot be changed. I am proud to be one such person. I sleep well at night and spend quality time with my family. I give my best to my students everyday knowing that at least some of them will help build the country I love so much.

Every time I see a success story from DRDO or ISRO, I feel joy as an Indian. Every time I hear my colleagues talking about the next healthcare technology that they are working on for the masses in the villages, I want to spend another weekend in the lab helping them. I may not be making a lot of money, but I am happy. I cannot say the same about a lot of my friends who are living the corporate rat race.

In the end, when it is time to go, I will not take my savings with me, not will Mukesh Ambani. So, let us make the best of the time we are given.

About real estate, there may be a bubble or may not be. Mumbai may have the infrastructure, or it may be a giant slum. In the end, you can always work hard to put a roof over your head, somewhere in India. I would rather make meaningful changes to the lives of the people around me than sip a cognac in the balcony of my 16th floor apartment overlooking the San Francisco harbor whiling away my time.

Let us be proud about the things we have accomplished. It will help us accomplish more!

Bharat

Anonymous said...

Bharat,

Very inspiring story however I would say that by teaching at IIT's you are helping many youth who aspire to sip cognac one day from their 16th floor San Francisco apt. You think you are making a difference teaching at IIT's, however I think there are lakhs of other kids who are under-privileged who need someone like you who could teach them. Your time would be much rewarded by by teaching these kids rather some brainy kids many of whom aspire to goto the US at the shortest notice, just like you once did, not that there is anything wrong with it

Anonymous said...

Bharat,

Very inspiring story however I would say that by teaching at IIT's you are helping many youth who aspire to sip cognac one day from their 16th floor San Francisco apt. You think you are making a difference teaching at IIT's, however I think there are lakhs of other kids who are under-privileged who need someone like you who could teach them. Your time would be much rewarded by by teaching these kids rather some brainy kids many of whom aspire to goto the US at the shortest notice, just like you once did, not that there is anything wrong with it

shailesh said...

Bharat:

I applaud your thoughts and actions. We need individuals like you.

The key challenge in India has been to work as a collective society. We have come long way since independence, but there is long way to go. We were traditionally divided society by religion, caste, language, economic status etc... It has been very difficult to rise above that to a higher ground as Indian. Unfortunately, the political leaders today are also exploiting the same divisions that we need to overcome. Case in point is Marathi language issue in Mumbai, which is by far the most cosmopolitan city we have. When you have leaders that like to divide than unite, what will ordinary citizens can do.

In my opinion what is needed is Lok Jagruti campaign to raise awareness about things like Health, Cleanliness, Roti, Kapda, Makaan etc... I wish some portion of today's riches earned by high Income corporates and individuals goes toward such awareness campaign. For e.g. There could be smart community campaign, which publishes standards for a smart community, tracks each community, applauds and rewards them when things are done correctly, provides awareness to citizens etc..

Anonymous said...

Washington, Sep 14 (IANS) More than $125 billion worth of funds meant for the uplift of Indians were illegally siphoned out of the country by corrupt politicians and corporates between 2000 and 2008, hindering inclusive growth, says a leading think tank here.

"Much of the funds flowing out are generated at home within India and then sent illegally abroad," said an upcoming report from Global Financial Integrity (GFI).

"So the growth of corruption and India's underground economy contributes significantly to illicit financial flows from the country," said the research arm of the Centre for International Policy (CIP).

"Corruption is rampant in India as it is in almost all developing countries. Both corrupt political and corporate officers manage to siphon off funds - intended to aid the people of India - off to political and private sector elite," it said.

"Recent efforts in India to challenge this corrupt affront on humanity have been met with severe violence," junior GFI economist Karly Curcio said in a blog on the report on illicit financial flows from India and explaining its linkages with poverty, corruption, and crime.

"As India develops economically and builds better infrastructure, one would think all Indian citizens would see an increased standard of living and that the income inequality levels would fall," says the blog post following a news report about recent violent crimes in India against whistleblowers.

"However, the gini coefficient, which measures income inequality, has actually increased over the time period measured, 2000-2005, from 0.32 to 0.37 on a scale of 0 to 1, with 1 being the highest income inequality," Curcio wrote.

"In India, as in other currently developing countries, as the economy grows, so do illicit flows," she wrote. "This positive correlation exhibits the increased incentives to conduct illicit flows, mostly because more money is flowing within the system to steal away and constant greed is tapping into that pool."

India ranked 84 out of 180 countries in Transparency International's 2009 Corruptions Perceptions Index ranking.

"As corruption continues to plague both the country and its ability to develop free and fair institutions to monitor and charge corrupt officials, the majority of India's economic growth will never make it to the people of India who desperately need it the most," Curcio warned.

India's legislative efforts to protect whistleblowers and those who work to fight corruption is a step in the right direction, however more must be done, she says calling for global efforts to make it harder to move illicit funds around the world.

These efforts include increasing financial transparency, as well as stronger work by developed-country governments to crack down on their home banks accepting these laundered, illicit funds, Curcio said.

Anonymous said...

http://www.zeenews.com/news653721.html

About 20% of the population of India is absolutely honest. For a population of 1.2 Billion, that adds up to 240 million people. That is about 5 times the populations of Australia and Canada combined, two developed nations which offer very high standards of living.

With so many good people in our country, why do we get bogged down by the bad ones?

Bharat

Anonymous said...

bharat,

most of the honest men are straight forward by nature. To deal with type of corrupt people we have today once need smartness. So honest men action will not fruitful unless he has some solid backing.

I read your post and really impressed with your work.

Following link may help you.

www.ppi.net.in

Anonymous said...

Only 1% of Indians are honest/hard working, 99% are corrupt/lazy.

CVC was just being polite, we all know 20% are not honest - because he knows Indians are a touchy people who refuse to acknowledge the naked truth

Desi Batman said...

@ Bharat,

Sorry, I didn't get how your post was related to any real estate discussion? What brings you to this India housing bubble blog/forum? Are you in search of dwelling that your USD 150K can't afford/buy or already bought your villa with your USD 150K?

We are bunch of selfish, dishonest, lazy ass, money oriented, unpatriotic people who want to work hard, get best of education for their children, best of housing for themselves and their family, do best of work with given abilities, opportunities and serve countrymen.

I work for IT company abroad. I earn and send money to Hindustan, my company does outsourcing and therefore created thousand of jobs in India that feeds many families in India. My children go to public school too. I give my quality time to family and friends. I also do volunteer work every month (in public school, communities) to serve humanity. I am in for humanity first then proud Indian or whatever.

One can put many things in perspective for people to applaud.

Now regarding your post. You sounded like a honest man, which I don't disagree. You have made mark in your life, achieved what you desired, may be you have reached to the level where you can glide instead of trying to take off.

- You find peace sleeping at night, but implying that people who make money they don't sleep well at night and don't spend quality time with their kids is absurd. May be you were in that situation when you were making money.

- People send their children to best schools with whatever they find best with their affordability and situation, and in general private schools produce better results than government schools. If you sent your kids to government schools because they are better than private schools I respect, else if you did just because of your desh bhakti you did injustice with your kids.

- Why teach in well established IIT? to make a difference? there are so many schools, institution which have high scarcity of good teachers, mentors. Most of the IITians are born talented, they need is little guidance, what about the kids who are ungifted and need more of your time effort?

- Wanting to live a honest life and allowing you to live a honest life are two completely different things. Latter will always dominate the former, if not then be ready to suffer or compromise. So 20% Indians are honest is crap, I say 90% are honest, but question how long? when facing situations in India arises these 20% of honesty will turn to be effectively 0.1% honesty.

I wish you very well my friend, overall you are doing great.

Now you got your 2 minutes of fame, let's talk about reality on hand - ABSURD REAL ESTATE.

Rahul Bajaj said...

Amazing Posts!! especially the one from Bharat. Classic example of a person trying to get attention by narrating a sad patriotic bullshit story. An IIT professor opting out of a honest way of life in the west to be a slum dog!! Atta Boy!! well done. This guy deserves Bharat Ratna

Desi Batman said...

Now with unaffordable prices, sales going down, prices going up what are the options for RE industry - Is it possible that we might see 30 years mortgage if RE prices starts to decline? I guess that will blow up bigger bubble!

Madness has no limits.

Anonymous said...

India needs more people like Bharat, no one is ideal. It is hard to be like mahatma, if you cannot believe or emulate keep off. Do not crib with mean thoughts. Sacrifice is key, we need to come up with mechanism to wean away our youth from pure capitalism, it is destroying our society.

shailesh said...

Well builders need NRI customers !!!

Indian Realty Show

Desi Batman said...

Well builders need NRI customers !!!

Indian Realty Show

They didn't me when I was in India. Now they need me? Oh ya they need more investors or buyers to dump their investments.

What a bunch of suckers.

Anonymous said...

Bharat,

I applaud your work. But in the same vein please realize "every person to him/herself". Maybe some people like cognac, should'nt they have it? Maybe the same person owns a company and employs 50 people, isn't that a great service, giving direct employment to 50 families?

Also, after 15 years in the US with high salary, you are not "egzacdly" a poor man are you? ;).

-Gadadhari Bhim.

Anonymous said...

Desi Batman, you are more than 100% right to say this "Wanting to live a honest life and allowing you to live a honest life are two completely different things" .. how true..

Anonymous said...

Dear friends on this blog, my intent was not to write a post with a "holier than thou" attitude, in fact I understand that different people lead different lives and they have every right to aspire to a higher standard of living. If I offended anyone with my post, I apologize.

I had only one intent: I have seen many posts on this blog with desperation and dejection in them, that real estate prices in India are very high, there is rampant corruption and so on. I personally believe that a lot of this is due to the fact that we have forgotten about the simple life that our parents lived and we saw in our own childhood. I am not saying that you should not aspire to a 3 BHK on Marine drive, but perhaps, if you can buy a similar flat for 1/10th the price in Pune, you should think about it without feeling bad. And then, make a difference and be happy. There is very little needed to make a person happy and usually, it has nothing to do with wealth.

I started reading this blog because after I moved back to India, like everyone else, I found that real estate is extremely expensive and I could not afford it. People told me that India is in a bubble and I came across this blog where I learned a lot about economics and real estate. Hence my post here.

About comments on why I am teaching in an IIT and not a school in a village in Chattisgarh, I have only one comment. We should try to identify a place where we can make maximum impact, given our background. Of course, I can teach the english alphabet in a remote village, but I think I am better qualified to develop a cheap and portable ECG or ultrasound machine for a rural health centre that will benefit the same village. But, I will definitely try to teach in local (poor) schools during the summer, when academic pressure in my IIT is less. So, thanks for the advice.

Also, it does not bother me at all that a lot of my students will go abroad and enjoy cognac. What bothers me is that many of them will end up becoming bankers and hence, completely throw away the knowledge of technology that we work so hard to impart. But, many of them will become bankers in India and my hope is that they will do something for the country.

Now, back to the real estate bubble and the experts on this forum. I am all ears :-)

Bharat

Anonymous said...

Indian reality show in Dubai, US, UK were nothing new. It has been happening for quite sometime. At least I remember since 2004.

DhImAn said...

Bravo Bharat.

I was waiting for some kind of follow up from you before commenting.

Dude Batman, Rahul Bajaj and others - why are you picking on Bharat? I didn't get any indication from him that he was trying to demean any of us here, nor did I get the impression that he was implying himself to be honest and patriotic as opposed to us.

Now, I don't know Bharat, but I can identify with what he is saying. I would personally choose not to be in technology at all, having been in it for two decades, but his point is valid.

Regardless of whether others do the same as Bharat or not, or even care - how can you find fault with him for what he is doing?

Oh, and if you're going to sip something in San Francisco, senor, it should be a margarita. Si habla Espanol, SFO is practically in Mexico anyway! Cognac is for gringos.

samix said...

Guys I would like to present another view, counties cannot survive without people, but it is people who make a country.

Imagine soldiers who died fighting for Prussia in WW1, there is no Prussia anymore, imagine the horror of these men if you resurrect them today and tell them this...

Sometimes I feel that all the patriotism that is taught to us and other people in different countries is misplaced, and a constant cause of unneeded warfare.

Anyways patriotism in its current form has gain currency only after the birth of the concept of nation states after Europeans were fed up of fighting among themselves.

Human life/needs/emotions need to be given more importance than a abstract concept called country, in my view.

@Bharat, dude get your kids outta those municipal schools, with all due respect to you, it is unfair to impose your patriotism on them, when they grow old, they will have to fend for themselves in an increasingly selfish world with bloated read estate prices!

ok, now I am bracing up for a lot of brickbats....

Laaloo Prasad Yadav said...

Hi Bharat,
After earning for 15 long years in US, now you are back to India. I don't see a better place then IIT for a happy and glorified retirement. Suck DST and MHRD and DRDOs for your flight charges and CAR bills.

And to make your retirement more fun, think good things and think good about urself. So think about India and patriotism.

Good man, Your life is a success.

But don't preach. Let the youngsters decide what they wanted to go... let them be bankers or brokers. Let them do what they feel profitable.

Its all money dude. Once you have food in your plate and roof on head then people think about glory and self esteem..

check out 5S or 6S theory


.

Laaloo Prasad Yadav said...

one more thing....

These KVs attached to IITs are better them most top private colleges in the city.
( i have spent 10 years in an established IIT)

So lads, pls don't feel pity for Bharat's kids. They are having the best at a very cheap price.

Desi Batman said...

DhImAn & Bharat:

I didn't intend to pick on anyone. Bharat is following his heart and doing he felt purpose of his life is. Good for him.

I am going beyond what Bharat is implying, he means to be Indian and patriotic. I say why limit to India, why limit to a boundry, why restriction? Why does anyone feel India comes above a humanity anywhere in the world? We should be serving humanity. And that can be done anywhere in this world - with or without money.

What is wrong for people to earn more for the labor and efforts they put in? People earning by creating a monopoly market and artificially creating demand are to be condemned. We want people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet doing philanthropy. They are not limiting themselves to USA.

Mother Teresa wasn't Indian, does it mean she was unpatriotic to native country?
Mahatma Gandhi studied in UK and started his struggle in South Africa. Does it mean he was unpatriotic?

I met a pediatrician in USA who makes atleast USD 200k per year, he left high paying job, lifestyle and went to Africa with his family to serve the needy. Does it mean he is unpatriotic to USA?

Everyone has to choose their ground to fight battle for betterment of living beings (human and other animals).

Living honest life in India is VERY tough. Situations WILL force you to change or adopt the dishonesty. It all starts with goverment offices and ripple effect is felt throughout the system, culture and religion. Some people tell me that they didn't face all the issues, I say they have horse blinders - they see what they want to see and ignore the rest. Remember the mantra 'Eat or Get Eaten' for your survival.

Changes (good or bad) comes from top and from bottom comes a bagawat, a revolution (for good or bad).

Bharat, philanthropist, IIT professor, once high paid earner cannot afford a house in Mumbai. I am scared to think about a new generation who will start his/her career/life in real world, how will they afford? May be they all should move to Pune and make a difference.

Desi Batman said...

Thanks Laaloo Prasad Yadav, I didn't knew what KV was, your post made me curious to know more.

These KVs attached to IITs are better them most top private colleges in the city.
( i have spent 10 years in an established IIT)

So lads, pls don't feel pity for Bharat's kids. They are having the best at a very cheap price.


This KV will put to shame many private schools.

KV IIT Powai

Poor Bharat (or whatever his real name is) did good choice for sending his kids to government school that is only to cater to the educational needs of the children of IIT employees.

Bharat, try some public municipalty school for your kids, that might add few tears to your sobby patriotic story.

Anonymous said...

Desi Batman, If you are bred with lots of moral strory about Indian mythology, sacrifice made by our ancestors to achieve the greatness they enjoyed. Why cannot we emulate, it needs hard work and sacrifice.

That is where your heart will follow your mind and not senselessly argue like a hollow disconnect communist.

Vik said...

to Everyone,

Bharat's case is unique and he has chosen to follow his instincts and his heart. Psycology has taught us that everyone tries to achieve a higher goal once the primary needs are satisfied. Most of the people on the blog are professionals who earn a honest living and if people like Bharat cannot leverage the USD conversion rate to buy a house in Mumbai what happens to the rest of the Mumbaikars who have been priced out of their own backyard.

Instead on picking on Bharat it would be ideal if each of us does something for the needy. In India corruption has permeated every corner including the Tirupathi Devasthanam. It is best if the charity we bestow is done directly specially the monetary aspect.

Now back to the bubble. It appears the stock market is headed higher so can real estate be far behind :)

Anonymous said...

This is not to pick on Bharat, but there are several such "returned from USA" folks who deceive themselves the most by claiming that they are "happy" and "doing the right thing" or whatever. In reality, these folks are probably so depressed and cursing themselves every minute of the day. The mask their sadness with tales of their own personal sacrifices, looking for kind words and praise from other bloggers. Sad....

Anonymous said...

Folks, we need to be careful with real estate purchase. There are sellers who are proxy to Dawood and his gangs who are there to make heafy profit. That will be plowed back to extremism and other agenda which is anti national. Dubai to some extent survived on gold manipulation and grab business from Mumbai due to lack of infrastructure. Now the islamic banking is trying to undermine mainstream banking to take advantage of hawala and Dawood type business model.

Dhi said...

Batman: Why does anyone feel India comes above a humanity anywhere in the world?

OK, I'll come out and say it, even if it makes some people mad. I speak only for myself here.

Lets see.

I won't help anyone from any Islamic country because their ancestors robbed, killed and murdered mine.

I won't help anyone from any European or European-derived country (N and S America, Australia etc) because their ancestors cheated, robbed and murdered mine.

I won't help anyone from most Asian countries because their ancestors attacked, looted and killed mine (yes, they did). Mongolia, China, Burma, Thailand, just to name a few.

I won't help anyone from any African country because I can't distinguish between who really needs help and who is just scamming me.

So who's left? India, Nepal, Sri Lanka and maybe some Asian countries.

I won't help most people from these places either because (as I said in my earlier posts), they are scum, out to lie, cheat and generally grind human decency into the gutter.

So there is a small subset of people anywhere that I might help.

You can call me racist. You can call me discriminatory. Or whatever. The point is this - it is my time, my money and my decision. Nobody can argue with that.

I can't and I won't help people indiscriminately. Its like I won't help a robber who is trying to steal from my house. I'll choose who will be the benefactor of my charity.

And so, if Bharat has chosen to help IIT undergrads, who are we to question that decision?

Sure 90% of them will become bankers and will work to grind human decency into the gutter, but it is those that don't become like that who matter.

Surely you don't expect lying, cheating scum to rule the world forever, do you?

DhImAn said...

Dammit, that last post was from me, DhImAn - somehow it showed up as Dhi. Sorry for any confusion this may cause.

Anonymous said...

The strength of culture defines who you are, it also nourished us to be what we are. How can we ignore that fact and start acting in disconnect way by justifying imaginary scenarios. I will go for "think globally act locally" motto. Even though we respect humanity we have self interest to preserve the society and belief structure to sustain our civilization. That is where our strength and salvation lie. Ignoring it will be at your own peril. The world is like a ocean full of shark, a rule of the jungle culture.

DhImAn said...

... there are several such "returned from USA" folks who deceive themselves the most by claiming that they are "happy" and "doing the right thing" or whatever. In reality, these folks are probably so depressed and cursing themselves every minute of the day.

So you are the ultimate authority on happiness, yes? If those poor depressed folks don't get your stamp of approval saying "HAPPY" then they simply cannot be happy, and if they show any sign of happiness they are faking it, right?

Or perhaps they are masochists or have the Martyr complex - because despite being able to go back to the US and be happy, they enjoy being in the slums of Mumbai.

Yes, most people who return to India have green cards or citizenship and can come back to the US at any time. Go read the R2I forums.

We humbly defer to you, Anonymous @ 12:14 - your wisdom has truly enlightened us. Without it we cannot be truly Happy.

Anonymous said...

India may be poor, but Indians are rich!

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/sep/15/slide-show-1-india-may-be-poor-but-indians-are-rich.htm

Though not directly related to real estate, some of you may enjoy reading it

Desi Batman said...

@ Anonymous 7:32 AM

Desi Batman, If you are bred with lots of moral strory about Indian mythology, sacrifice made by our ancestors to achieve the greatness they enjoyed. Why cannot we emulate, it needs hard work and sacrifice.

That is where your heart will follow your mind and not senselessly argue like a hollow disconnect communist.


What was your point again? Your post seemed meaningless.

Were you trying to say that people these days are non hardworking and do no sacrifices? Or were you implying that we all should simply live, love and dream of old glory?

What was about disconnect communist? Please don't gabble and rant if you cannot put forth your thoughts.

Desi Batman said...

DhImAn 3:11 PM
Surely you don't expect lying, cheating scum to rule the world forever, do you?


Forever - No. But in my lifetime - Yes.

I am in for humanity - no bar on Race, Religion, Country.

Bharat - let him do what makes him feel happy and proud. We should do what makes us happy and proud, no arguements here.

Desi Batman said...

@ Vik 7:38 AM

Now back to the bubble. It appears the stock market is headed higher so can real estate be far behind :)


Sorry to keep repeating this question, somehow I can't simply let go... where do people find money or earn this much money to invest in stock market and hyped RE?

I am totally priced out of Mumbai. Looks like I am forced to be debt slave, is that my and many people's destiny?

DhImAn said...

Batman: "Forever - No. But in my lifetime - Yes."

Well, unless you're counting on kicking the bucket pretty soon, I think you'll see some pretty interesting things happen in your lifetime. I'd say that something's gotta give in maybe 10-15 years.

Maybe it'll be some new mother of all bubbles, or maybe it will be a crash. The status quo is looking increasing unstable.

Why do I say this? OK, look at yourself. You're getting increasingly frustrated with working and earning and not even being able to afford a simple house in a place of your choosing.

There are others that are getting frustrated with not being able to save for their kids' future.

Yet others are frustrated at not getting enough to eat.

And still, we slave on. Naturally, the global powers that be will have to do something about the frustration, failing which they know that the masses usually will go to the guillotine.

So to save their own hide, they will create another monster bubble, or a bad, bad crash in the attempt.

They have to create the illusion of prosperity and plenty, if not actual prosperity and plenty, or else heads will roll.

Sadly either approach will leave some people worse off than before, but these will be the disenfranchised lot about whom nobody cares.

So either these people will accept their bad karma and shut the hell up, or heads will roll.

See where all this is leading? All the so called "alternatives" are actually alternatives to head rolling.

So politicians, leaders, businessmen and others will make one bad decision after another, trying to prevent heads from rolling, until heads do finally roll.

In fact, the bad decision process has already started - simply look around you.

So this is the beginning of the end. How long does such a phase last? We have to look at history for an answer, because our experience doesn't provide one.

The answer is rarely above a generation, i.e., rarely above 25 years, (a saeculum if you've read "The Fourth Turning" - must read BTW).

So if you start counting from the Nasdaq crash, after which the bad decisions mostly started, we are looking at about 10 years, max 15.

Hopefully individual markets will show a discontinuity event sooner.

Have patience, things will change soon. For real.

samix said...

@Dhiman, my dear friend, it is surprising that you choose to judge the descendants of certain people by the acts of their ancestors.

samix said...

Oh shit, bharat can you please secure my kids admission in kendriya vidyalayas ?

samix said...

@vik actually some people here got bugged with bharat coz he was trying to give us a lesson in patriotism as if we were sell outs.

What he did is actually moved from the US (just another desi) to India as an IIT professor, wow! now that's an elite group to be in, who in the world would not want to be a IIT prof in their right mind, and I do not think leaving US for this opportunity is that big a sacrifice, or atleast it is well compensated..

DhImAn said...

@Dhiman, my dear friend, it is surprising that you choose to judge the descendants of certain people by the acts of their ancestors.

Yes, I am sorry Samix, I am no idealist. I am a racist, discriminating a$$hole. No, really - I'm not being sarcastic, I really am.

The only difference between me and others is that others act as racists and do discriminate, but say they don't.

So, I am what I am, but I am not a liar and a hypocrite.

Think about it - I have finite resources to help other people. I have finite time and finite money. So when I choose to help someone, say financially, or by training or mentoring him or her, I want to be assured that that someone isn't going to turn around and stab me in the back. I also want some assurance that the person is deserving of my investment of my time or money in him or her.

Understand that this is not some bilateral trade agreement or business deal so there is no question of "fairness".

It is unilateral - I lose something and someone else gains something. It is already unfair for me. If I'm to take the losing side, then at least it has got to be on my terms.

Now, to pick one or two out of 6 billion, I have to use certain ugly generalizing criteria, such as race or actions of ancestors.

Actually, I don't care so much about race. I care about actions. So if someone did something bad to me, that person is automatically disqualified. I am sure everyone would agree with this. I may forgive and forget, but I won't go out and help that person. I'll disconnect from that person. Right? With me so far?

Now how about someone whose father did something bad to my father or mother? Disqualified. Same principle. I'll forgive and forget, but I will disconnect.

I merely extend the same principle back in time without limit. If anyone's ancestor did anything bad to my ancestor, then that person is disqualified.

Does this sound horrifying against the modern pseudo-morality of non-discrimination?

Too bad. It's this way or the highway.

That's because the alternative is that I won't choose the losing side at all, i.e., I won't help anybody, and spend whatever money I have on myself, living a life where I don't care one bit for any other person.

So, tell me, should I be a selfless but discriminating a$$hole, or should I be a selfish and non discriminating one?

I'm sorry for not being who you thought I was, but I'm not sorry for being who I am.

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rajni sharma said...
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